This week, my guest is Ivan Cocker.
Ivan has a highly informed view on history, as keeper of models at the Malta Maritime Museum for Heritage Malta, and as a world renowned modeller in his own right with a long history of award-winning models and some seminal pieces that were a big influence on me as a returner to the hobby on the pages of military modelling magazine, and at Euromilitaire.
He is also a reenactor of several periods including medieval and Napoleonic, and head ordnance judge at scale model challenge
We talked about the relationship between history and modelling, historical accuracy, historiography, and much more…
Chris Meddings
Ivan, welcome to the Model Philosopher. A lot of people will, I should hope, recognise you from your contribution to modelling over many years, especially in dioramas and armour. I remember particularly covers of articles in military modelling and all over the place. But you’re also a committed historian. You work in history and museums and you’re a re -enactor as well. Can you tell us about your connection with history?
Ivan Cocker
Thank you so much Chris for the invitation. I’m humbled with such an intro.
History is a passion for me. So… Could be where I come from, because Malta is practically every stone is a historical artifact. So, I grew up like that.
Chris
The island’s saturated in history, isn’t it?
Ivan
Yes, sometimes it’s too much. It’s too much. And after a period, I ended up working in history as well. work in a museum, so, in a way, I’m now connected. And yes, I’m also a reenactor. And reenactment taught me a lot.
Honestly, I entered reenactment to cut out from modelling in a way. To make it more fun or a little bit more relaxed. But it ended up different because it taught me a lot. It’s something totally different, when you wear the things and you try to mimic what others went through and the past, you start to understand more.
Chris
Well, they call it living history, don’t they?
Ivan
Exactly. It is playing soldiers that’s true, but when you start living the past, you start understanding more, even what a soldier felt sometimes. We used to do long hours marching for example, you understand the fatigue, even taking care of weapons and the weight of things. For example, I used to do Napoleonic and medieval. So both things are different, two different academics in a way. You totally start understanding even when you see model figures, what’s good or wrong in a way. Even how they wore things.
Chris
But also, it’s your job, right?
Ivan
Yes, I’m a Keeper of Models. It’s a very interesting job. In a way, I take care of the national model collection. And it’s quite a selective thing, we have models from 17th and 18th century. So, part of my job is to study those models and conserve them and take care of their conservation.
And obviously when the curatorial team will come up with new ideas and especially for this place and heritage interpretation or new sources, new models and dioramas come in play. So, we use a lot models and dioramas to disseminate new information and try to reach out to people with our sources. So sometimes it’s not only that you write papers, or you write books. Dioramas and models are still quite an effective tool in museums.
Chris
Why do you think they’re still effective in this age of kind of VR and interactive displays?
Ivan
VR and AR is quite good in a way, it’s something very innovative, but what’s different is at the moment technology as it is, VR and AR, allows you at 15 minutes to view. or else your mind [it] will be too much and what is different is you’re seeing a video or you’re entering a rendered virtual world.
A model is a tactile thing. You’re seeing a 3D object in front of you. There’s more connection. And what I have found, is that models can help out. Mind you, I don’t see one as better than the other. People say models and dioramas are dying out from museums, for example. I don’t really agree with that. I think the good thing about a diorama or a model in a museum, for example, in a showcase, is that you’re allowed to stay there, watch it as long as you want, check out what details you want. They can communicate to a young person and to an old person, and there’s no difference in a way. So I think there needs to be a balance in between. One is not killing the other. I don’t think so.
Chris
Do you think there’s a perspective that models can bring as well, with a big diorama, that you don’t just get the sort of… experience at a close level of one person on, say, a battlefield or in an area, but also the topography, the foliage, villages, towns, other people, everything else.
Ivan
When you’re doing historical dioramas for a museum, it’s totally a different concept than… [what we modellers do]. You’re not that free like we are, doing model making at home. You have documentation, you have to abide by that, but you find gaps. You find gaps. And so, the first thing, that you go through: is you collect sources. Let’s say if it’s a battlefield or a particular battle, you try to get sources from both sides. Sometimes it’s difficult, but it’s ideal to get from both sides because historians are biased. So sometimes you get sources that are totally, totally keeping what they wanted to tell in a way. You try to combine that. You also consult archaeological finds when you get them, because through archaeology today, and especially with new technology, you can get even the weather, the terrain, anything. The sky is the limit today, what you can get with all these things. But still, when you collect all these things, the job is to create a storyline. From there you get a storyboard, like a movie in a way. And yes, artistic license still is important, a factor, because although everything is historical, you still have to balance things, especially to give the proper story.
Chris
You’re used to a concept of history that’s more based in sort of an academic idea of history, where you see things a lot more in context. Do you think modellers are maybe too specialized in their knowledge of history or their concept of history, say based around a single vehicle or single army?
Ivan
I still think history can play a good part. So unfortunately, sometimes I notice that a good amount of modellers, because of time, or because they lack to ability to find things, don’t consult historical sources. And nowadays you can pretty find anything, or you can talk to people over social media. You can connect with historians today, with experts. So sometimes I’m a little biased on this, honestly. I’m a little biased. So I feel that sometimes they need to put a little bit more effort in, but it again depends on taste and what the modellers would like to find.
On the other hand, maybe there are modellers who don’t like to read or don’t like to search, but I still find that modellers need to keep their eyes open, even look at pictures and original photos, for example. You can notice many things. You can really, really go through, scrutinize and explore a photo, and basically you learn as well, you really learn.
Chris
I think it’s not everyone’s aim to be historically accurate or to tell history. Some people just want to build a model. But there are people who say that they build models to “honour history”. And I think if you’re saying you honour history, I don’t actually know what that means. But if you’re saying that you’re doing something to teach history, there’s a lot of modellers use it as a kind of a fig leaf for why they build the things they build. I kind of feel like they don’t actually put much history in it. It’s just like, “well, there was a tank that looked like that. So that’s history”. If you see what I mean.
Ivan
It’s quite a strong thing. Let’s say, honouring history sometimes it’s… It depends. I think it depends from a modeller point of view. It really depends. What’s the aim of what he’s trying to fulfil? A modeller needs to really go through that his connecting to a viewer.
I don’t like to say it. It is an art. It is a visual art. Or let’s say visual communication, because there’s another can of worms that can get out of hand. So it is a visual art. And you know where I stand on this. I’m quite artistic in a way.
Chris
Well, it’s definitely a craft at least, maybe an art, but definitely a craft.
Ivan
It is a visual communication tool. So, and I think in that aspect, but it’s always depends, depends what one needs to do. For example, myself, once I came up with this idea, I found that in 1945, Czechoslovakia and Prague, there was an uprising, for example, and I was intrigued with the story. And, I came up with this diorama.
I found this, it was, a camp that was originally liberated by the Soviets. But my idea, what I came up with was I created this particular Hetzer, that the insurgent captured. And I don’t know if you remember it, Chris, I think you might remember this one.
Chris
of course I do, yeah.
Ivan
and I created this idea of this Hetzer opening up this gate of this particular camp and the people like rising against the… the Nazis that were there. I remember once I posted this on Facebook and I was practically being pinpointed by, especially people from the East that told me, “No, no, no, that’s not really historical accurate. This is not what happened.” Yes, I’m aware about that, but my intention was a little bit different. It was a little bit of an artistic thing, based on a historical thing. But my storyline was ‘rage against the machine’ in a way, that the idea, the people uprising against it. At that time, I remember the news was filled with the uprising in North Africa, especially in Libya at that time. So these ideas were on my mind with people rising up against dictators and these things. So, this is something you cannot end up with, with model making. You come up with a different story, different concept. You’re not really rewriting history, but you’re giving a communication thing, a message in a way. And maybe that’s something modellers can really look into.
Chris
I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately and it’s quite hard to articulate because it sounds heretical as soon as you say it. But I think sometimes modellers obsess too much about the details of history and not about the spirit of history. So, in your case, that diorama represented the spirit of the people rising up to liberate themselves and their countrymen, particularly in the camp. And maybe the actual event didn’t happen, of the Hetzer going through the gate, but the uprising did and that emotion and that movement of people in Czechoslovakia wanting to liberate themselves definitely happened. So, it’s historically truthful, but not historically accurate. If you see what I mean.
Ivan
Exactly, exactly.
Chris
But I think it’s important to get that kind of spirit of history into the things we do, the emotion of it, because the emotion’s quite often the thing that’s missing in models.
Ivan
I think so. There are two particular types of model makers; There are those that go into the technical thing and they enjoy building up the model and put all the details and be very, very, very, very accurate. So I think for them, if we’re speaking about machines, that will be the main factor that they are seeing.
And there are others that can be a little bit also artistic in a way, but try to convey a message or try to come up with some ideas as well, or play out with colours. I don’t always see it that you’re trying to downgrade history or trying to come up with rewriting history.
This is another factor: you can give certain messages or do some propaganda with it or something like that. This can happen with books and anything. So, as I say, model making is a medium.
On the opposite side, I think that’s something we don’t sometimes look at. We have to see what other people think when they see our models.
We like to say we build models for ourselves. It’s true. We built them for ourselves. But we want to show them as well.
Chris
If you just do it for yourself, why not just finish it, put it in a box and put it away somewhere? If you’re showing it, it’s because you want people to see it and then that’s the communication.
Ivan
That’s true. This is quite a conflict for me because in my line of work, sometimes I have to be quite strict in a way, because model making in museums is quite a compromised thing. You can be free in a way, but sometimes you have to be quite selective.
So recently in my studies, I made a case study of a particular model that was in the Imperial War Museum. [As part of the IWM London’s Holocaust Exhibition, by Gerry Judah ] Sadly, recently I heard they took it off. It was about the Holocaust, it was the Auschwitz camp. It was a 1/72 model. Large, I think about four, six meters, something like that. I thought that was huge. But what was impressive is we all know it’s a sad story, quite a horror story in a way.
But the model makers came up with a brilliant idea. They, and the designer of that exhibition, they placed it in a room that was dark and they created a grey diorama that was almost white, no colour but they created something that was quite, quite impressive in a way.
Going back to model making, the hobby of model making. If you do something like that in a competition, for example, it is accepted or not. I feel we need to open up to someone coming up with this idea and be innovative in a way. Sometimes I feel we need to think a little bit out of the box. Although things are historically accurate, for example, let’s say. The Auschwitz diorama was very historically accurate. I managed to connect with the model maker who made it and they told me they studied photos of the period to create the proper place and the proper buildings and even the amount of people they inserted. So it was quite a well -sourced documented diorama.
But on the other hand, they were artistic as well.
Chris
I think by removing colour, kind of subconsciously, you think of black and white photos and black and white photos we associate with the real, because they’re documentary, they’re not, you know, we’re used to seeing black and white photos of the war. So in a sense, it made it more realistic on a subconscious level by taking the colour out.
Ivan
I think so. And if you continue on this concept, what Spielberg made in Schindler’s List as well. So I think sometimes, yes, playing with colours is another topic that we can go through.
Chris
Yeah, that’s a whole episode on its own.
Ivan
Yes, yes, yes. And I did an experiment once. That old Euro military days. That was quite a shock, I remember, the guys judging it.
Chris
I remember. Yeah. Was it a BT5 or a BT7? A Spanish Civil War diorama, wasn’t it?
Yeah, that caused, I would be in danger of going off the subject, but I’m gonna stick with it anyway. That caused quite a stir when you posted it online as well. I’m Missing-Links, I think. A lot of people reacted quite, I wouldn’t say negatively, but they didn’t get it. They didn’t like it and they didn’t get it.
Ivan
Yes, that’s true. Some thought it was black and white from Photoshop in a way. Others had some negative things about the Spanish War, I know it is a harsh topic to discuss as well. So that’s true.
Chris
Especially in Spain. Well, that brings us back to history. I mean, the sort of the perception of history in Spain is, it’s a very, it’s a living thing, if you see what I mean. There’s constant sort of push, pull and debate in Spain about the Civil War.
Do you think that models sometimes represent that, from a historiography point of view? Since you know, you’re an academic, you know this stuff very well. Do you find that models are often indicative of the attitude of the time towards what they’re depicting? Do you think that changes over time?
Ivan
Yes! That is true, that is true. Going back to my work, when I go through, especially our national collection, and especially see old models, and you have to understand why they were built, and who built them. So, and I think even today, that continues, subconsciously, subconsciously, even us modellers, sometimes we don’t realize we’re conditioned to ideas and concepts that would go through could be inspirational. I think it is an academic topic to go into this more than that and it’s quite philosophical. I think model making is quite philosophical.
Chris
Yeah, well, that’s why this podcast exists! I mean, I think a lot of my generation and the previous, I mean, I’m late Gen X and I think early Gen X and the baby boomer generation. I think a lot of our models are very heavily influenced by the war films of the 50s, 60s and 70s rather than history. And I don’t think it’s necessarily a conscious thing, although people do often obviously try to make models based on movies, but they’re consciously making it about the movie model. But I think also subconsciously, our idea, particularly of World War II and World War I, is based on the cultural understandings of World War II and World War I in the West from the 50s, 60s, 70s. And actually, if you look at how history looks at those periods now, it’s a little bit different from how we think about it.
Ivan
Totally agree, totally agree. And this evening I noticed that even going through exhibitions around the world. You see, people of certain age are more inclined to certain topics. Youngsters today are moving out. They are moving out. It’s strange. This is something strange, because for example, people coming from the 50s, 60s, even myself, from the 70s, we’re still inclined to World War II or Cold War subjects.
The generation of today, they like, they are still seeing things that, historical things, let’s say, unfortunately, war. There is a war going on, so we are all aware that we’re seeing multiple things, but it seems they are not inclined to build those models. They go into the fantasy realm, or else try to be more futuristic. Then again, then I see from my kids, if they’re inclined to a particular video games, they sometimes inclined themselves to see, I remember, I remember some years ago, it was our model exhibition in Malta and I saw this grandfather with a young guy, a kid maybe 12, 14 year old and he was looking at all the tanks and was really picking up each tank one by one. “This is a Panzer I, this is a Panzer II.” and going through “King Tiger.” I said, “How come?” And I went to speak to them, and I said, “You’re a model maker?”, “No, I play World of Tanks.”
So that’s another thing. So in a way, it’s quite complex to say why generations are inclined to particular subjects and not. And maybe, what sometimes I miss and…why historical stuff are not getting fancied by the younger generation.
That’s quite a question nowadays.
Chris
I mean, culturally, we were raised on, you know, comedies like ‘Allo, Allo’ and movies like ‘Battle of the Bulge’ and stuff like that. So, you know, with parents or grandparents as well that were involved in World War Two. So we grew up in a culture that was, and I’ve said this last episode, so apologies to anyone who finds me repeating myself, that we grew up kind of saturated in World War Two culturally. But they’ve grown up with Avengers and Star Wars and sci -fi, well we had Star Wars obviously, but you know sci -fi and fantasy. more so culturally just because that was the fashion in movies and TV.
But like you say, I was one of the people when ‘World of Tanks’ came out, I hated it because of the, you know, the fantasy things it did to tanks as you go up the levels and so on. But it has had an effect that kids, my son played World of Tanks, he plays War Thunder now, it has had an effect that kids have got into that stuff and they know what it is.
So, if anything, I think it’s had more of an influence on them than modelling certainly has, in terms of historical interest.
Ivan
It’s true, it’s true. I totally agree with that.
We are two nerds, maybe. That’s maybe the proper word. We like details, we like to be realistic as much as possible. We are sometimes… I think crazy about the proper FS colour, RAL colour and then these things and could be we are putting off the new generation. They are not that strict as we used to be in model making, so we need to allow their creativity to come in and accept what is there, what they want to say to us. I think we need to accept that. Okay well we can discuss that.
If you want to build a realistic model it needs to go into a particular direction. But then again, if it’s their will to do something like that, I’m not against it, honestly. I’m not against it. I used to be, honestly. I think we go through that, but I’m mature enough that today I accept people to come up with any kind of ideas, honestly, as long as it’s pure model making and they are showing their skills. I think we should allow more.
Chris
I used to be a rivet counter, as you know. I got right down to where the welds are placed around a nut on the idler of a Churchill and so on, at which mark of Churchill produced when and all that. I used to be really into that stuff and I still am. I still like to find those details because you find the details, you can paint the details, right? You know, it’s part of the fun. But at the same time, I come to think that we obsess too much about the details and we spend more time worrying about the exact size and position of the driver’s hatch on a Tiger I than we do about what a Tiger I did and what happened to it. There’s too much about the engineering and not enough about the history in a lot of ways.
Ivan
That’s true, that’s true. On these ideas, reenactment taught me a lot. One thing is, for example, uniforms. Even in our units, for example, you don’t find one uniform identical to the other. Even colour, we don’t go to war, we try to take care of them because they cost us a lot of money, so we are quite restricted, but you still notice even we ordered this batch this month and in a year’s time another batch even from the same tailor you get different colours for example. I think we’re sometimes too strict. We need to allow more, to be more creative and think out of the box.
Chris
Do you think modelling has much of an impact outside modelling circles? How likely are non -modellers to learn something from our models?
Ivan
This is quite a good question. I think it has impact. It always has impact. As I said earlier, models are a visual communication tool. So, people are looking at the models. There are different… identities of viewers, how they look at things. So even someone who is not a modeller, so they can pick ideas, they can pick detail, and you can even teach. I’m going to do an academic thing, so I went through my research at work.
Chris
I mean this is your thesis, right?
Ivan
It was my thesis, in a way. It was my thesis. It was about dioramas being a didactic tool and if it’s still relevant today, yes it is. And from my research I came up with quite a concept. There is an academic that views visitors that come into a museum into different identities, and no one person is the same. And even that same person can change his perspective, how he’s looking at things.
And there’s another thing, models, from what I managed to find from my research, models have one particular… thing that we overlook. Models speak to different ages, to different people. There’s no particular language barrier. There’s no age barrier. So yes, it is an educational tool. So, in a way, we have to be aware what we’re doing and what we are subjecting in our models.
Maybe someone who’s hearing this, some people, some modellers say, “What we’re up to? What? So we’re not enjoying models? Or else we have to be aware what other people are saying about our models?” I don’t think that’s the idea. I think it’s more what I’m saying with my model. We have to be aware what I’m saying with my model. And no model is the same. We can all build the same model, that’s a good exercise, I think. We can build the same model with the same scheme and none of them will be the same
Chris
That’s something I used to think about a lot at art college, because I always wanted to make art that communicated. And all art does anyway, whether you want it to or not, but I was quite interested in the idea of how well it communicated, that it was up to me to do it in such a way that the viewer understood what I was trying to say. And I think it’s the same with models, that if you want someone to understand, what you’re saying with your model, it’s up to you to build it in such a way that it’s understandable. Which doesn’t mean that you have to want someone to understand it. You can just, if you want to just build it for yourself and show it and have people look at it and go, “that’s a nice model or people that know, you know, all those tracks are the perfect tracks for that period on that date” and what have you, that’s fine. But if you do want to say something with models, it is your responsibility to think about how you say it.
Ivan
Totally agree, Chris. Totally agree with this. And maybe something that’s only for dioramas to be storytellers. I tend not to agree with that. I think even a single model can say a lot.
That’s something I learned from museum practice. Traditionally a museum used to be a collection of artifacts and just building up a collection. Nowadays, there’s a different concept how we look into artifacts. Each artifact tells a story. It has to tell a story. Each artifact has a story. So I think it’s the same thing about a model. So as I said, it can be a technical one. It can be, as I have in our national collection, for example, dockyard models. And then that or models that we have, for example 17th century models that were built for the nautical school.
So, still, it has a story to tell, even the detail they put into, or the effort the bundle maker went into. So I think even nowadays…I remember some years ago we used to speak even styles about models. We used to say that’s the Spanish school, this is the Italian school. This model I used to remember, Nordic, Belgian, and any kind of schools coming up. And yes, I feel it was a school of thought. It was a school of thought.
Today, it has become worldwide almost united. It happens even in contests. I’m a head judge and I might come up with this big issue that happened especially last year, for example. And there was quite an argument. But it’s true that we have quite an identity nowadays that all models almost look the same. We can’t blame that.
Chris
We’re in danger of straying into another episode I’ve got planned that basically, modelling has homogenized the style. Yeah. I remember the first time I went to Shizuoka a few years ago now, you could still see the Japanese style, the Masahiro Doi style, the sort of no modulation and like. airbrush dust and stuff like this, but a lot of precision, a lot of careful colour separation and everything. But now when I go, I’m not sure whether, I think it’s because Mig has been spending a lot of time in Japan as well in magazines and things, but all the models there look like the models here now. And that’s kind of sad in a way.
Ivan
It’s true, it’s true. You get inspired, I guess. I guess you get, it’s easy. This is like traditional art as well. When new ideas come up, everyone starts following them. And honestly, now with social media and the internet, the world became quite a small pond in a way.
Chris
that they all look the same, you know?
Ivan
Even if a new style comes up it starts flowing and followers going through and then people start copying, this is copying in a way and then following up and that’s why many things become very very very united in a way.
For example, SMC is an international show nowadays, but sometimes you watch a selection and say you can’t spot this is a Japanese modeller or this is a Nordic modeller. And it is, it is. It is a good thing, in a way. I’m not against it, but it’s a way how it evolved. And it is evolving very, very, very fast.
Chris
Well, historically, put us back on subject. Historically, it always happened anyway. I mean, a big thing here in the UK in the 18th century was ‘Japonisme’ with the goods being bought from the newly reopened Japan where the ports have been forced open, were coming over wrapped in old Ukiyo-e sheets and things. Artists would unwrap them like Van Gogh and stuff and look at them and go, “wow, that’s amazing. I want to paint like that.” So, they do it.
But now with the internet, instead of that taking a decade to happen, it takes a week that something just goes whoop around the world as fast as you can see it.
Ivan
I used to remember you used to wait for a magazine or some big exhibition and someone come up with a new idea and then you spend the whole year trying to mimic what this guy tried to do or try to understand that so it changed it changed and I feel it’s a good thing in a way so it’s part of thing what I wish to maybe people push in is a little bit more of research and keep things that are… How can I say? Not play around with history because sometimes we need to keep in line what it should have been, especially model -wise. But then allow that bit of…art coming in. For example, I love, even when I go abroad, to go to see military art. I love it. I love it myself. I get a lot of inspiration out of that. And I don’t only see, for example, Neville and I follow a lot, for example, modern artists that keep realistic doing this kind. Keith Rocco, Don Troiani.
Maybe these two gentlemen are one of the guides, I think. And still, they are very, they have artistic license, but they are quite in line with historical subjects. For example, uniforms are quite, even the posture of the persons and the elements they go into. So, I think we need to look into these ideas.
And don’t forget that that can be realistic and still creative as well.
Chris
Do you think modelling is inherently linked to history? Do you think modelling and history are something that has to be kept together or do you think history is an optional part of modelling?
Ivan
I leave it the choice of the modeller, honestly. Look at how many Tiger Tanks there are. How many brands come up with Tiger Tanks for example. So I think there is a historical fact that we still…come up with that there’s still a connection. There’s still a connection. But on the other hand, it’s up to the modeller in a way. And I think that is his freedom where he needs to go to.
More than anything else.
And it depends what he’s inclined to, in a way. And what’s his perspective. Or else what’s the line here? There is always this argument how realistic is a model and how much I want to be so historically accurate.
Chris
Well, that brings me on to my next question, actually. You’re the head ordinance judge at Scale Model Challenge and you’ve been judging yourself there with Dioramas and Armour for a long time. We’ve judged together in the past there. Do you think historical accuracy is a valid criteria in judging scale models?
Ivan
It is. I cannot say it is not. It is. But…It’s a hard question. So I cannot penalize. You know how I think about model making. When I do my instructions to the judges, I always keep up with this motto: “Look at the good things of a model, rather than seeing the negative.” There is no perfect model. There’s no real, pure, historically accurate model. So, first look what the modeller wanted to convey, I think that’s the first thing I have to see. Obviously if there is something that is so inaccurate in history, that’s up to the judges to consult between them and see if this is a problem.
And I think that’s what makes, for example, the colour of the medal. That can benefit what was the colour of the medal in a way. But it depends. What is the story and what he wanted to say with this model. Actually, it can be an inaccuracy, who is the most accurate model maker? I don’t see anyone can be.
So, mind you, I always leave the judges free in these decisions. But, and there is an element in the criteria that historical accuracy is one of the things. But when in doubt of something, and this is something I learned from Shep Paine: Leave it to the benefit of the model maker. When in doubt and if it’s not so clear that this is an inaccuracy, why should you penalize for something that is very very minute? Not something that changed our history with this concept.
something I want to say as well. Being a head judge.
And thanks to Robert and Martin, we like to team up the best model makers that we can work with. And I think that’s something people need to understand when going into competitions. I know it’s another hot topic, and always dealt with and there’s always arguments about that. But the way we always try to work it out is to team up three different minds in each section. We always select master modellers, that’s something we like to push. And you try to combine different abilities, different ideas. So, from that concept, I think so far it always worked fine.
I think it was one of, I can’t boast about it, our successes in a way.
Chris
I think last year there was a really big controversy over the judging and I don’t want to get into that. I’m just bringing it up because that’s more or less the only time I can remember a big fuss like that over the judging at SMC, certainly in ordinance anyway. And I think that says a lot about the judging and about the team and about your’s and Martin’s organization because other competitions have this kind of a furore every year. And the fact it was so unusual at SMC is a really good sign.
Ivan
It happens, it happens because as we said there are different interpretations and we can come up with the story, it’s been on the net as well, so it came up with this idea because there was like a homogeneity of a certain style all over the AFV section which in fact, I cannot say it wasn’t. It’s true. It’s true. When you go through, you know, how you look at all the master section, especially it was because that was it, the master section. It was true that that was quite a very similar concept of style.
But when you start looking one by one, then you notice differences. Then you notice that they could be minute. These minor things. It is different than, let’s say, 20 years ago. 15 years ago. Yes, it was true. You had that what we used to call “the wow factor”. That was the particular model that come up with a boom, and it used to be standing out from the others. That’s true. But nowadays it changed. It changed. And I think it’s for the good because so many modellers today have reached the utmost of their skill. That every benchmark is very, very, very hard to see something that stands out from the other.
On the other hand, and here maybe I can pinpoint something. On the other hand, on the dioramas, I can point out a different concept. On the dioramas, we’re seeing a little bit of a different transition going through. On the dioramas, we’re seeing a lot of the same, a lack of stories.
And I feel that some that enter into that section have this philosophy. I think they think it’s I’m putting the model and surround it with a… Let’s say I put it more simply. I like this tank and I surround it with an ambience.
Chris
Well, we I was joking about this with a friend of mine. And basically, the dioramas seems to have solidified around “tank, building, figures”, where you have a building in the background, a tank in front of it and a couple of figures on the ground. And that’s, you know.
Ivan
Yes. Mind you, it might be and because there are certain rules in other competitions that dictate this. So I hate, I hate this, I hate this idea.
Chris
It’s very formulaic. Yeah.
Chris
I think actually it’s because of the popularity of a few modellers. And I don’t want to say who, because they might feel like I’m accusing them and I’m not. It’s just they’ve done it and they’ve done it very well. And others have said, I’ve had to do that as well. But they haven’t necessarily picked up on everything that was in the original, if you see what I mean. I am going to say one, actually. I’m going to say Roger Hurkmans, but there’s always something more going on in his, there’s all the figures, the way they’re interrelating with each other is the story. But people aren’t necessarily, they aren’t necessarily picking that up. They’re seeing the figures, the vehicle, the building, and they’re copying that, but they’re not copying everything. They’re missing the story.
Ivan
Exactly, that there is a body language, there is a connection.
Most probably, and this is another topic I think, a lot that go into dioramas, think that buying a stock figure is enough. But they don’t realize figures sometimes are a tool that tell a story. So you need to convert figures to tell your story. You need to restyle a little bit. Small conversions, they don’t really need to be… to create a good language between the connections. So just a tank officer inside a cupola standing there staring. But then if you put the binoculars in his eyes, it’s different. I think it’s already telling something, and this is quite a simple thing.
And I think this is what people going into the dioromas they’re not seeing. And they go into the skills of doing the best trees, best houses, best tanks, best groundwork. But there’s no connection. There’s no connection.
Chris
I think a good example from last year’s SMC, which also gets us back to stories, stories to history, was Peter Usher’s, it might have been from the year before actually, “Divine Intervention”. And he had a Sherman next to a building, but the Sherman in the building weren’t the story. The story was to the tank commander and the nun who climbed up the tank to point out Germans to him. And it was just the look between them or him looking down her finger to where she was pointing. That’s where the story was.
And also that comes from history. It comes from a story he found that may be apocryphal or something from a historical source. And by bringing that into his diorama, that’s how he created the story. So history can really help people find the story as well.
Ivan
That’s true. So that diorama was quite a learning curve in a way because it revealed something. Let’s go into the basic things. So it had the usual pointing figure. Those that ring the bell, we used to call them.
Chris
Yeah, but not the usual because she wasn’t German, haha.
Ivan
He came up with the concept that we have seen it. Not something new, as is the usual, pointing commander. So, but what? He was wise enough, Peter was quite wise. He came up with this story. And the first thing, once you see it, you say, “well, what’s the nun doing there?” So you go into in depth and it was quite a revelation, more than it was a direct storyline. You need it.
Someone needs a little bit of to explain you the real story but it makes you intrigued why?What’s the story behind it the scene? Let’s go into the historical fact; it is quite a fantasy thing. the story it is a historical subject, but it has a lot of fantasy in it. If we explain it a little bit better, this diorama, it was like a ghost. So, the storyline was narrated by this commander, they saw this nun and told them where the Germans are and where the artillery are. And originally it seems it was like a ghost. So it was real or not.
Chris
I think afterwards someone said “there’s no nunnery anywhere near here” or “there’s no nun, that nun doesn’t exist” or something, wasn’t it? So, yeah.
Ivan
Exactly. So, there was something behind it. In a way, it is thinking out of the box and it’s quite a fantastic subject in a way, but still it’s historical. So why not? Why not? People think about such ideas and does it need to be a real source in a way, but connect with the historical subject.
It’s like a historical movie. So. we see a lot of movies, even the recent Napoleon.
Chris
That’s got nothing to do with history. That’s the only film I’ve watched and afterwards felt like I knew less about the subject than I did before.
Ivan
I was a crew because I work in the movies as well. So, I knew what was coming up before everyone. But still, it’s the director’s vision in a way. So, all right. So, in a way, model making can be something similar, Chris. Why not? Why not in a way?
Chris
Well, I think also there’s an idea among model makers that history is an immutable fact. That if they’ve read a history, that’s the truth of it. And if you deviate from that, it’s not truthful. But history is kind of our best interpretation of things that happened in the past. It’s not actually 100 % accurate.
Ivan
That’s true. That’s true. When you consult sources, as I said before, even history books, many, many historians are biased. So that’s human nature. We cannot blame that. And even sources, original sources, and sometimes you have really to see in between the lines what’s in it. Even pictures. Sometimes we study original photos is it true they are accurate or not? Were they staged? There was a reason, if they were staged, so it is a hard topic for me, those that say “I try to be as realistic as possible”, I think.
It’s a tough bone to bite in a way. You cannot really be that realistic as much as possible. On the other way, being creative. I remember Chris, for example, I was amazed about your Diorama last year. I loved it, I loved it. I really loved it.
Chris
Thank you.
Ivan
You build up all those wrecks up to them, and convey all the figures coming up and then the last figure with the Ukrainian soldier with the white dove in his hand. So that was a very good message for example. Very good message. Maybe some see it as propaganda or political inclined. I don’t see it like that. It was really a message of peace in a way.
Chris
Well, politics in modelling is another subject that’s a favourite of mine. It was a political model, but I also think that people that say there is no politics in modelling, or there shouldn’t be politics in modelling are naive. I think that any creative endeavour is political in the same way that everything we do is political.
Ivan
There is politics in modelling, for sure there is politics. Not just political from historical point of view, I think even politics about styles and about fashions and about what I like and what I despise in a way.
Chris
Yeah, yeah. The ‘great weathering debate’ is the most political thing, ever.
Ivan
Exactly, let’s not go into that subject. But it is a factor to consider. And it is still part of our remit, in a way. It’s the modern world Everyone has his own way
Chris
Yeah, very much so.
Chris
All right. Is there anything I should have asked you that I haven’t?
Ivan
Hmm. Hmm. That’s a hard question.
Chris
Well, I’ve got an even harder one for you if you like. I’m gonna ask this to everyone. I asked it to John Rosengrant at the end of the last episode. I’m gonna be asking everyone from now on:
Why do you think we make models? What is it about the hobby that keeps us wanting to make these little miniature things?
Ivan
Oh, boy.
If I speak for myself. I think in part it’s a passion I think we are in a way, in control, I feel. You’re in control of what you’re doing so you’re building something that is in the back of your mind or it’s something you enjoy, or you something you fancy, or something you want to say or do.
So, you’re really in control what you’re doing there. And there’s another thing, it’s something minute, small. I’ve been involved into museum dioramas, that are 1:1 scale. Or into film props as well, that are 1:1 scale. I don’t feel the same thing.
Chris
There’s that famous Peter Jackson’s Weta studio work for the museum in New Zealand as well. They were sort of what? 3:1 scale? It was huge, wasn’t it?
Ivan
They made something, the Gallipoli experience, they made something gigantic in front instead of minute. But that’s a really good concept. I was coming to that. It’s the scale factor. Scale is something very important. It’s something very important because when it’s small, I think it depends. It depends on the size. If you’re going too minute, too small,
It’s a little bit destructive. So, you have, let’s say, a battlefield in 1/1000… You’re not seeing the people inside it, but you’re seeing the overall picture. But when you’re building up the scale and especially because, in fact I studied it as well, what Peter Jackson did, this thing about the Weta-made gigantic. They wanted to evoke the story. So, they made it something more impressive. You’re seeing something gigantic and like you want to explore more. You’re like… it’s a different concept. You’re not into control of things. You’re minute to the story.
I think when we’re building up, let’s say I enjoy 1/35th, 1/32 scale. That’s my scale I prefer. I think. I feel I have control, I’m seeing them in my hands. I’m building them and but still I’m seeing their facial expression and I’m like Gulliver in Lilliput, in a way. But when you’re seeing something bigger, I experienced myself going into a film studio. Lately in Malta they were shooting Gladiator.
And when I entered the film set and seeing, for example, I felt I’m in Rome. I felt the extras running around me like I’m the odd person out instead of the people and the actors dressed up.
I felt really I’m ino Rome. So I went into the subject and I think that’s something I see in modelling, especially when I’m building things. Even… Honestly, I think building especially things sometimes, it’s a bit of a horrific experience going into those tracks and those minute things building up. Some enjoy it, I don’t. Honestly, I don’t. I want to get into the finish. But still, you’re building up that experience. I think it is an experience. It is an experience. And it is feeling part of history. And we go back to living history in a way. In your hands.
Chris
I think, with danger of straying off philosophy into psychology, but I think control is a big part of it. I think particularly if we have lives where we’re working for other people and we’re constantly in demand from other people, to have something you’re completely in control of is very relaxing. It takes away the sort of anxieties of it. But at the same time, when it’s a creative thing like that, you have total control because you’re not just telling the story how you want, you’re creating the story and everything. So that’s very enjoyable to have something that starts with nothing, maybe a kit, and ends in something you totally created. I think that’s very satisfying.
Ivan
That’s true. I totally agree with it.
Chris
I think with the Peter Jackson Gallipoli thing, I wonder whether that’s part historiography as well, because the way when the centenary came around and the way Peter Jackson sort of reacted with that with his World War I films and so on, there’s a kind of a tendency in our societies to memorialize and monumentalize World War I.
And I wonder whether that’s part of it, that it’s great big monumental scale. It’s like a worship or a homage of that history.
Ivan
So true.
It was so true because you can go into… there’s a good YouTube channel and it does explain really what they went into the story. The idea is because New Zealand, although they entered World War I, they still have… so they went out of their way, in a way. They went to Western Front and other places or Gallipoli, which is quite a strange, exotic place for them. And what is more monumental for them is because it seems that everyone inside New Zealand has a connection with World War I. They have someone that’s… There is some kind of connection. So in a way, there was a feeling into that exhibition.
A strange factor was, people aren’t really aware about this. They made a war experience inside an art museum. That was in Topaka. It’s an art museum. Originally.
Chris
That’s very important as well, the setting, the venue.
Ivan
So, if you [look at] how they planned out the story, these gigantic statues they created, they went into miniatures videos and anything so they made a whole concept of how practically your mind plays when seeing these things and they selected these few artifacts or stories, and then recreated their idea. But they ended up with quite a nice thing to, like a connection. They ended up with this figure of an ANZAC in the Western Front, all drenched with mud, and they asked the visitors to take a poppy and write something and throw this poppy, a paper poppy, and they made a case study from what they came up with and strangely enough a lot of from the younger generation wrote what they experienced when they saw this exhibition.
So, this is something we need to be aware when we do models in a way. And other people are experiencing something, what we are showing. Not just it could be artistic, it could be evocative, it could be revealing something. And so we need to look into this philosophy thing behind what we’re doing.
Chris
I think you don’t have to think about what you model, but it can really enrich your modelling if you do think about it.
Ivan
That’s true
Chris
I do think a lot about why we do it. and it’s a strange thing.
Ivan
Talking to my club mates in IPMS Malta. By the way, I’m IPMS, so maybe… I’m not that kind of man. I’m very, very more open -minded, unlike the traditional strict or “lifting things”. That’s the other side.
Chris
Ha ha.
Ivan
I see different concepts how people, how members in my club look at models. There are those that are stress relief. They are into stressful jobs or want to escape problems, life problems. So yes, modelling can be quite a good tool.
You relieve anxiety, even myself. I have a problem with anxiety myself. I cannot. And I find model making that helps me a lot. As long as it comes good
Chris
Some kits increase your anxiety.
Ivan
I saw tanks flying in my studio so I cannot blame that. So yes, there are many. So it is quite a theoretical thing what is model making for everyone. And I feel it changes as well. There’s no one strict way.
Might be this week I’m feeling I need to destress. In fact, recently I’ve did it myself. I was building dinosaurs. Believe it or not, I was building dinosaurs. Just I want to do a habitat diorama. I felt I am enjoying doing this instead of the usual strict subjects or something like that. So I think it’s up to a personal choice. So, you change, you change. This is an evolution.
Chris
And it’s a great hobby for that. You can get so many different things out of it.
Ivan
Yes.
Chris
Okay, I think we’re pretty much at the end.
Before we go though, we had some really sad news yesterday and I wondered if you wanted to say a few words about it.
Ivan
Unfortunately, yes, quite a tough thing. Yesterday, one of our founder members in our club passed away, Luis Carabott.
He was not just a master modeller for us, he was quite an all -rounder. But apart from that, speaking for myself and even for my brothers in arms in the club, he was not just a friend, he was our mentor, our father, our kid’s grandfather. So he was quite one of a kind.
We lost a treasure in a way, one of our pillars in our club. But unfortunately, that’s life. What’s good about it, he really left a legacy. And I think even his model making and some of our models are in our national collection in the VHU museum so people can still enjoy his work and remember him.
And for sure, for sure he will be part of the Maltese society of modelmakers.
Chris
I only knew Lou a little, but he seemed to be someone who always really understood the joy of model making and was really good at spreading that to other people.
Ivan
That’s true. He really enjoyed model making in a way. He started, for example, with aircraft, then passing to figures, then passing to building ship dioramas, exclusive ship dioramas. And lately into his 70s, he was doing cars. For example, recently he just had built the Airfix Bentley, a horrible model for this age, but he managed to, just really reconstruct it and he used to really, he was passionate, passionate, very passionate about model making. And one thing, he was a real master, a very real master, but he passed on his skills even to a younger generation, even to novice. That’s something, something to be really honoured about him and something, we should, all of us, learn from. I think something will lead to pass on.
Chris
I really do want people to have a look at Lou’s beautiful dioramas and models. Thank you.
Ivan
Thank you. A tribute to our dear Lou. We call him Nanou, grandpa.
Thats all for this blog and discussion. I hope you have enjoyed it as much as I enjoyed making it.
Don’t forget, you can listen to this one on all good podcast apps, just look for “The Model Philosopher”
