Welcome episode 12 of the Model Philosopher
Firstly an apology for the extended 6-week absence of the show. As many of you know, I also run ITA3, a producer of 3D printed accessories for armour and aircraft models and I have been exceptionally busy in October and November preparing for and trading at Scale Model Challenge, our sponsors own show, and Scale Modelworld, the UK IPMS national show.
In fact this is a special episode as I will be talking to Robert Crombeecke from Scale Model Challenge, and hearing all about this show and what to maybe expect next year. So lets not waste any more time, and lets hear from Robert now: (NOTE: All photos in this article by Eric Reist (c) Erich Reist 2024)
Welcome Robert to the Modern Philosopher. Or welcome again, Robert, to the Modern Philosopher, whichever you prefer. As the sponsor, I’m contractually obliged to have you. No, I’m joking.
Robert
Hello again, Chris. No, you’re not. Do we have a contract? No, don’t think so. Yeah, thank you very much for asking me again.
Chris
Now, I wanted to get you on because I wanted you to talk about SMC and quite often we have you on to talk about what’s going to happen at the show and stuff. And I’ve wanted to interview you at the show about the show, but of course you’re always too busy. So I thought we could do kind of an ‘after show’ thing where you’ve had a chance to think about it, how you think it went and have a talk about this great show, and maybe listeners could get any of a better idea of what happened and what we’ll have next year.
Robert
As if we have a plan for next year, right?
Chris
Yeah, right. Well, like this, but better, right? And I don’t know how you do it, but you always do it. I think it’s no secret now that this year was a great success. How do you think it went?
Robert
It went very well, think. I think we broke, well, I don’t think, we know we broke all of our records in terms of visitors, in terms of participation in the contest, a number of models in the contest. The balance between figures and audience hasn’t changed. It’s still two-third, one-third, but the overall total was just enormous.
Very surprised that we could still manage to put everything on a table, on the tables, more or less, except for some ships, I think we had to add some tables for that. But yeah, we had a team during the build-up that was phenomenal. Even though we had a couple of new guys in the team. We had some external help as well.
During the build up everything went flawless. Every problem, if there was any, was solved immediately. And not just by me, but by others, which is a very refreshing idea because in the past it was a lot like, “Robert this and Robert that”. And know, drives you crazy because you’re just running from left to right and without doing anything, just answering questions and helping out. And this time, every time I asked somebody, have you thought about this? They raised their hand and just said, “just go away”. And then I went to somebody else. said, did you do that? “already been taken care of”. So, hey, I didn’t say much. didn’t do much. was just walk walking around like a headless chicken. Not so much during build up, but during the show itself, because everything was picked up by the team, we were very happy.
We always do an evaluation after the show. For the club, we have a forum still. And we say, just throw everything on it that you want. And basically, it’s always like, okay, in our country, we rate in school, 1 to 10, which 10 is the highest and one is the lowest. And then we always say we are at a 9.5 and the only thing we can do is now make it a 9.6 or something like that. There’s always small things that you can improve afterwards, but if you don’t have anything to wish for, then it becomes dull.
Chris
How many volunteers did you have this year?
Robert
89, not all volunteers, but we had some people from security that we hired. the people, the parking attendants are also hired, but all the rest were really volunteers. But altogether, there were 89 people walking around these four days together. And I think at the top was on Saturday, we had something like 58, 59 people.
So not everybody’s there for four days of course.
Chris
So you had a big push on the buildup and a lot of people come in for that.
Robert
Yeah, well, not so much, not that many more than last year, honestly, especially on Thursday, we start because we clear out the storage, put everything in a truck and then we move to NH and from there on we start building up in the afternoon, we start building up the contest area, which was done actually at the end of the day. So, I mean, we have a supper, around 5.30 or something, and then we go on until eight o’clock to do some other things. Actually, it was done and that was a first because usually we use up half the Friday as well to do the rest of the contest but that wasn’t necessary, so Friday we could build up the rest of the show.
And honestly, technical staff from NH, they put down the tables for us. So we don’t have to do the lifting and everything else. We just do the decoration. Let’s put it that way. But that was also done very early on Friday morning. And that’s where really the hard part starts, because then the biggest job is done. And then there are a lot of people that are there. And some of them really see work. some people can find their own work. But there are also others and you know, that’s just how it is, that need to be persuaded or hinted to do this or that. But in general, you know, everybody did the job fantastically. We were just over the moon on Sunday evening because I think on Sunday, even when we were breaking down, we were already done at 7:30 in the evening.
Chris
I see your breakdown is really fast, isn’t it? Two hours, something like that.
Robert
Well, actually I wouldn’t know because you know, when we start the award ceremony at 3.45 every year, then usually the traders start breaking down the stands and whatever. then it also, it already starts and people can take the models from the tables by then. So, by the time I’m done it’s what, 5.30 or so? So, part of the job is already done.
And when I come back to the halls, then a lot of tables are already cleared from the black cloths that we put on them. So, things go really fast. And then again, the biggest job is to break down the contest stuff. Because obviously we have to wait until all the models are gone. And that may take a while sometimes, but in general, it goes very fast. Because I can imagine, you know, everybody wants to go home. So if they can take the models from the tables, they will. So yeah.
Chris
Well, a lot of people drive straight home after the show, don’t they? So they want to get their stuff and get going.
Robert
Yeah, I mean, there’s a small number of people that keep hanging around until Monday, because they have a flight on Monday or the ferry back to the UK or whatever. So, it’s still nice to hang out in the bar. You can have some quiet, more easy conversations, it’s not as crowded as is in the days before. yeah.
Chris
Yeah, a bit more relaxed on the Sunday, isn’t it?
Robert (
Exactly. Although it’s, tiresome, but you know, normally I’m, I’m, I’m dead meat like at 11 o’clock in the evening on Sunday. And I think, I think they threw us out and quarter past one on, on the Sunday as well. Cause yeah, because I was having a, quite a long chat with TJ Haller from, the Plastic Posse Podcast on Sunday in the bar about a lot of things.
Monday I was off, I still had to bring all the stuff back to the storage and you know, put my own stuff back, anyway, at three o’clock or so I was sitting at my desk and I was like falling asleep. But you know, it was just a fantastic weekend.
That’s my problem with during a weekend, I don’t think I sleep. I always said 20, but I don’t even think I reach 15 or 16 hours of sleep in those four days. Because I think on Saturday night, I slept, I don’t know, maybe two hours or three hours, Friday night, same thing. So, if I lose my voice or whatever, it’s not because I drink too much, it’s because I have to take care. I’m not getting younger. So I have to have to take care of what I’m doing. But it’s, yeah, the lack of sleep is more the thing. And I don’t know why, because, you know, everything was fixed and everything was ready and there wasn’t much to worry about. But, know, you just go to bed at maybe 1pm or whatever, 1.30. And then you wake up at four o’clock in the morning and you can’t get back to sleep. Because you start thinking about trivial stuff that nobody really cares about. And that will resolve anyway, because I’ve already written it down, that I have to think of this and this and this. I have a to do list every day at the show. Small list. It’s not even that long. But yeah, maybe I’m just an idiot. don’t know. Whatever.
Chris
subconscious anxiety I suppose that something will go wrong or you forgot something. Let’s talk some numbers. How many visitors did you have this year?
Robert
Well we never know the exact number but it’s more than five thousand, that’s for sure.
Chris
How does that compare?
Robert
I think last year we had about three and a half thousand or something.
Chris
Wow, that’s quite an increase.
Robert
Well, it showed. Especially on the Saturday, the only thing I don’t know exactly is how many people came were on Saturday and how many were there on Sunday, but on Sunday, it was a little bit less. It was less. And you could actually walk on Sunday, but on Saturday, it was sometimes really packed at some areas.
Chris
How many models in the contest?
Robert
2772.
Chris
So again, an increase on last year.
Robert
Last year we had 2,340 or something or 2,240 or whatever. So it’s four or 500 more this year.
Chris
The interesting thing this year was the growth area though. one of the biggest was aircraft.
Robert
Exactly, yeah. I think I also mentioned that the award ceremony, I’m not sure if I did, but this is the first year we had more aircraft than AFVs in the contest. So, I know we’re more considered to be a figure show, which we’re not a figure show, we’re really a mixed show. But coming from military, because the first SMC was called Military Scale Model Challenge, if I remember well, then the year after in 2008, we had this, the Dutch classic model airplane throwing competition. I know they used to do that at a show in the Czech Republic at the time, they had a model throwing contest. So basically, a model that you screw it up, you could bring to the contest and the thing was just throw it as far away as possible. That’s it. And we kind of borrowed that idea for our second show. And we call it the classic Dutch model airplane throwing competition, whatever name we had to give to it. It had to be something nice. some people brought their own aircraft that they screwed up. And we had a guy in a club that had a few boxes full of aircraft that he built two thousand years ago probably. So they were used as well. And the guy that won the contest was actually a guy from a, how would you call that? The club is called Wheels, and they have genuine World War II armour, army vehicles. They were displayed at the show static display outside with the vehicles and that guy won. There are still photos around to prove that.
Anyway, a lot of people, especially aircraft builders, held that against us, and that was for a long time.
Chris
Well, the “holy aircraft” you can’t mess with.
Robert
Well, you know, the thing is we started off as a military modelling show because we all came from a diorama background or a well, most of us were diorama builders. And we know that there was an IPMS in the Netherlands and we thought, “OK, let’s not screw up. I mean, the country is too small to have two similar shows”. And so, we said we’re going to focus on military and figures and let IPMS do the aircraft thing.
But you know, in every club, you know, people build a lot of different stuff. So eventually, we let that idea go as well. I mean, it’s ridiculous, actually. So to focus on just one subject or two, or, or dismiss other subjects for whatever reason. But yeah, I think a couple of years ago, we still had a discussion with a German guy that said to me, “yeah, well, there’s still some German aircraft builders that still hold it against you”.
I said, listen, “it’s almost 15 years ago. Come on, us a break”. But now we were lucky enough to have a lot of Eastern European contest participants as well. A lot of them brought aircraft.
We had a growth in a lot of the classes, actually. Ships was, I mean, not enormous, but it was much bigger than it was before. Well, you judged it, so yeah.
Chris
Ships was definitely bigger this year. Yeah.
Robert
And some really nice ones. We had a large number of Asian visitors and participants in the competition, which I think is also always very interesting.
Chris
I think particularly from Taiwan, Japan and Singapore this year.
Robert
And China, mainland China as well. Yeah, so it was quite nice actually. And a lot of Americans this year, also a growing group.
I think in the competition we had, I have to look this up… 708 participants in the competition from 39 different countries.
Chris
and literally all over the world, I think.
Robert
Well, two filled out “other” in the list of countries that they could choose from because they weren’t in the list. I think one was from, shoot, where was it again? I don’t know. It wasn’t on the list. I think it was a South American country. Yeah, it’s just funny. Yeah, it’s just great to see such a diverse crowd and diverse styles in the hobby because that’s one of the things I like when the Asians come. I saw the Mosonshow this year as well, and you saw some really nice creative things that you hardly see, especially in the diorama section, that you don’t see much more here. Some nice aircraft builders as well, ship builders. Yep, happy, happy, happy.
Chris
Did you ever imagine when you started this, the first year, you’d be having people from 39, 49, whatever it is, countries coming to your show?
Robert
I was happy enough that people from Belgium and Germany came, and France and then the UK. Yeah, that was about the scope that I was looking for. If you draw a circle of 400 or 300 kilometers around Eindhoven, I mean, you’re in all these countries.
Robert
Belgium is not that big. 300 kilometers, you’re already in France or in the UK. Well, you have to swim a bit. That’s it. Of course, if you go to the East, in Germany, 300 kilometers, it’s the most dense populated area in Germany, the Ruhr area, which is not too far from us as well. I was hoping for that. That was it. But that people would be coming from Asia or as far as New Zealand even or Australia as well. And repeatedly, I mean, it’s not that they come every year, but they come back, and I think that’s rewarding. Yeah.
I think it’s that we bring something that other shows don’t. And honestly, because you know what I think? I know I’ve been thinking about what makes our show so different. Obviously, the venue offers everything that you need, you know, it has a hotel. Yes, it’s always full. I know that but yeah, you can never have enough rooms in the hotel. But so the hotel is always full, but it has a hotel there. You can have your dinners there. You can go out as well. The bar is there. So, the whole social aspect is something that works a lot. And that’s something that’s not our doing per se. I think we created a show where the people feel comfortable, happy, welcome, and that the word spread. So it’s a show where people want to be; and where people want to be, more people will come.
So it’s not just our doing, but it’s also the whole setting. What is our doing, is we try to make people feel welcome and at home because Margot and I, we always stay during the show, we stay there for four days. We stay from Thursday, you know, we leave on Monday, and we see everybody that comes there as a guest at our home. It sounds a bit cheesy, I know, but we really feel that.
I mean, people can probably, it’s hard to imagine. I mean, you just organize a model show, a scale modelling show that you have that feeling, but it’s really the feeling that we have that we want to welcome everybody in our home. Because NH after 10, 15, 14 years does feel like our home once a year.
Chris
It’s odd because something I hear a lot of shows sell themselves on, particularly one I’m going to next weekend or the past weekend by the time this goes out, sells itself on the fact that you’ll see X-amount of models there. You go to look at all the models. But I think with SMC, obviously you go to see the models. But for me, I go to see the people because you know, all your friends are there. There is this incredible welcome from you and Margott and the team that really does feel like going to someone’s home.
and having a fantastic dinner party thrown for you and looked after and pampered and what have you. But you go because the people you want to be with are there. And that’s something that only comes from word of mouth, only comes from putting on a really good show that other people say, “you’ve got to come, we have a fantastic time there”. But it’s also something that’s really hard to describe to people that have never been because it is so different from other shows.
Robert
Yeah, exactly, that’s it.
I can imagine that people would say if you live in the US or even in the UK or maybe, I also still read on some things from one of the guys sent me a screenshot from a discussion on whatever forum or whatever it was or on Facebook from a Dutch guy that says, “yeah, but it’s quite a travel there”. And he lives, I think it’s not 90 minutes away. Even in England, you laugh about it. In France, you laugh about one at 90 minutes and in the States, probably, you know, they die laughing from saying, but it’s one and half hours driving.
Chris
That’s like going out to get milk for Americans, right? It’s local. Yeah. Yeah.
Robert
Yeah, that’s local. Exactly. So, that’s something I can’t get my head around. I mean, you have the opportunity to see the best of the best of everything. Doesn’t matter what, if you build Gundam, or ships or you paint figures, the best of the best are there. And you just say, Yeah, well, can’t bother because of the travel. Okay.
It’s a shame because you know, the thing is that I started the show, or me and Roy, we started the show at one point because we wanted to show that in the Netherlands that there is more than a quick dirty wash over an armoured vehicle and dry brushing. And that there are other figures that you can paint than Waffen SS busts.
I’m not even saying it as a joke. That was really our intention to show the Dutch modelling community that there is more than that basic stuff. yeah, well, still, well, unfortunately, people still hang in that era. They’re still there and others have progressed and probably that’s also the reason.
why our show is popular by a of people. I think we also did a lot of promotion. We went to a lot of shows, or not a lot, but we targeted some shows that we really promoted ourselves as SMC, not so much as our club, Scale Model Factory, but as a show. Maybe that paid off as well. You never know, but you know, we’ve been standing actually in front of the stand, handing out flyers, stopping people, do you know our show? And that’s what I always say about when we had the IPMS show in the Netherlands, and it’s only a month after SMC. We were there with a stand and we were standing in front of it and then we stopped people because they look at our models that we have at the table and we have a TV screen with stuff running, footage running from SMC. We say “okay, you build”, do you know our show? They say, “no, we don’t know your show, is it new?” And I think, “okay…”
But I do get the feeling that there are more, and you know, I see the ticket sales and we sold a lot of tickets to Dutch people as well. well, I’m jokingly referring to IPMS, but I think we’re getting more Dutch people in as well. Because before we always had the idea that, you know, a lot of the visitors were, quote, “foreigners”. I think the majority were Dutch this time. Really, if I look at the tickets sold to Dutch people, yeah, I think so. Should be, must be.
Chris
Do you think attitudes in modelling are changing? Do you think this idea of just taking a historic vehicle, building it, finishing it, obviously still a big thing, but it’s not such a dominant thing as it was a few years ago?
Robert
Hmm.
It depends on which team you are. I think there’s still a huge group of people that just want to build, either historically, well, historically correct, maybe not the biggest group, but they just want to build some piece of history. And I think what I always call the hardcore part of the hobby, they take it a step further. They step away from the old methods and the old techniques and the old thinking. But I think the majority is still the same as it was 20 years ago. That’s my opinion. And it’s not a bad thing in itself. I mean, it’s just a way of thinking.
But because maybe you and I, we meet a lot of the hardcore people, you tend to think that the whole hobby is changing that much.
Chris
I don’t think the hobby will ever go all hardcore,
Robert
No, it won’t, never.
Chris
What I mean is, I think it’s a generational thing, I’d say, because I hate people that talk about generations, but I think younger modelers just aren’t as invested in building a vehicle, they eiether want to tell stories or they want to do fantasy, or they want to do something new, something different.
Robert
Yeah, yeah, well, your son plays, you play Warhammer with him, right?
Chris
Yep. Yep.
Robert
Yeah, I do think there will be changes, there will be some changes in the future. There’s a lot of people interested in Gundam and the, the Ma.K thing, a little bit less, but Gundam is rising.
So, you see a shift in the future, I think. And of course, from Warhammer, there are vehicles as well, which are easier to assemble, much faster, and easier to paint. the wrong… Well, details…
Chris (56:15.426)
They are designed to be easier to paint, yeah.
Robert (56:23.068)
Yeah, I know. Yeah, exactly. I was listening to your interview.with Tue Kaae, where he clearly said, and I never really got thought about that, but he said that Games Workshop really created their figures and things that can be easily painted by boys of 12 or 14 year old. That’s why they make the details as they are now still.
You know, you see even all these Warhammer Games Workshop figures, there is so much great painting out there with those figures nowadays. It’s really amazing.
Chris
And they might be designed to be easy to paint, but there’s some really nice sculpts going on in some of it as well. Some of it’s a bit… but a lot of it’s really fantastic.
Robert
And it’s up to the painter to make it better. To make the difference.
Chris
Yeah, yeah, exactly. know, just because you’re given a canvas, you don’t have to paint by numbers, do you?
Robert
No, you don’t. don’t know you. Exactly. Exactly.
Chris
So, you know, can paint it how you want. Talking of which, that’s been a growth area, hasn’t it? Because you introduced a category, didn’t you? Was it last year for under, what was it?
Robert
Yeah, on the 40 mil, on the 40 mil, because the thing is, and actually the idea came, from Tue, he’s a good sparring partner for us.
Chris
He’s always pushing you though, isn’t he?
Robert
Yes, but rightfully so. And, I think that’s also one of the things that does make a difference. I mean, it’s our payoff actually, “Making the Difference”. But that’s one of the reasons we try to listen to advice, or tips, or whatever that we can use, put to use for SMC to improve the show, at least we think it will improve the show. So, we’re open for ideas and Tue came up with the idea, we were Monte San Savino I think, and he said to me, listen, “there are so many figures and you know, they’re all getting bigger because they used to be smaller scale and the scale gets bigger and bigger and those small gaming figures, they get just flushed away by all the big stuff”.
Also, we found, (that didn’t come from Tue), #we have some guys from the War Gaming scene in our club as well. They say, we know a lot of painters that really want to join the competition, but they see all that fantasy stuff on the table, and they say, well, forget about it because my stuff is not going to stand out. So, when we introduced the small-scale fantasy in the fantasy, it’s actually not for fantasy, It’s just small-scale figures of under 40 mil. So, because you also have historical war games, right? Those figures also apply to that category, if people want to. I don’t know if there were many, probably not, but yeah, it’s also open to them. It’s not really limited to fantasy. But that helped us a lot. Last year, it was okay. This year, there were many more.
Chris
Yeah, really big this year. And I know some people that I follow in the Warhammer world who previously probably wouldn’t have thought of going to the show, who go to what’s it called? Golden Demon and stuff like that. They came this year like Hendarion and some other guys and bought their stuff.
Robert
Although everybody always complains about Golden Demon, but still, they go by the masses.
Chris
Well, I mean, they say modelers like to complain about competitions, but in my experience, guys love complaining about competitions.
Robert
Everybody complains. Margot and I went to Belgium, there was a painting contest that was at the same time as a large war game tournament, world championships. there were some sales tables there and I picked up some stickers that say complaining is part of the hobby. So, they might be right. even in that scene, they complain a lot. So yeah, well, if they don’t complain about you, you’re not worth complaining about. So that’s cool.
Chris
You could say the more complaints you get, the more successful you are, because that’s the “tall poppy” thing as well, that the more successful you are, the more there are people that like to take a pop just because they want to be seen as the edgy one, going against something successful. I see a lot of people complaining about Tamiya, but I’m sure Tamiya aren’t too worried about their sales.
Robert
Yeah. Well, honestly, If I read a negative after the show, you see a thousand positive comments and then there’s one, one, that pisses vinegar, It doesn’t put me off anymore, but it used to because, you know, I can’t make everybody happy. I’m not a pizza. So, it’s what it is. I mean, tried to do it. We tried to give it our best and not everybody wants to get the same thing out of a show. Some people just want to get cheap kits, second-hand kits, or partly built kits. They don’t care. They just want to spend 8, 9, 10 euros on the box that, back in the day would have cost you 30 or 40 euros or 50. And they’re happy with that. And we don’t offer that much of that.
Or people think the show is too big. On the SMC website, in the history section (https://www.scalemodelchallenge.com/history/#), you can go back to every show that we had in the past when we have all the results, pictures from Eric, all the well, most of the models. Also, this year we try to find some video clips on YouTube that we link to. And there was one guy from Germany, I think, and he was very positive about the show, but he concluded with, “I still like the smaller local shows”. Well, good for him. I can imagine that you get that people got crazy on Saturday in the crowd, because I did.
Chris
Yeah.
Robert
Once in a while when you had to go from A to B it was impossible sometimes to go fast you just had to wait your turn, I mean you can’t push people away can you?
Chris
Yeah, things got a bit desperate when I needed to go to the loo and I kind of forced my way through. It’s like “move or you’re going to get wet shoes”.
Robert
Yeah, exactly. So that was one of the things that really made us think also about crowd management next year and things like that. Because yeah, with Versailles (World Model Expo 2025 https://wme2025.com/) coming up, we’re not sure about how many people will show up next year, could be a little bit less, but it won’t be much less, I guess. So we need to adjust some things as well.
Chris
Talking of size and how you cope with things, the show’s getting bigger and bigger every year, but you’ve reached kind of a hard limit with the amount of space at the venue.
Robert (01:03:38.124)
Yeah, well, it’s not getting bigger. We just use every inch of the space that we can use. But we tried to be sensible and keep the fire regulations of minimum dimension. After the show, I got an email from somebody who was a firefighter, he sent me a very lengthy email about all the regulations that there are and stuff like that. At first I thought, “come on, man, give me a break”. And I was thinking it over and I think, “yeah, but there were some areas that could use a bit more air, to be honest”. So yeah, because of that there will be some changes next year on the floor plan.
Chris
Can you give us any idea of what that might be or too early to say?
Robert
It’s not early to say. I think the main change will be in the hall where the club section is. There will be less clubs, that’s for sure. And we will move most of the clubs to a different section of the venue. Not all, we will keep some of the clubs and we will expand the vendor area into that hall, as we did with the World Model Expo that we organized, but not exclusively. And there will maybe be some expositions there as well from concept artists. That’s mainly figure, and fantasy related, but like this year we had Paul Bonner, but for next year, I think we’ll have at least two people more, two big names for that scene as well. So, we will need some more space for that. And I don’t think we’ll expand the contest area that much.
We will add some tables, so all in all, need to move a little. We have to make some of the aisles a bit wider as well. And I already got some requests from people who want larger stands that they had this year. So yeah, we have a lot of thinking to do. And personally, I wrote on the SMC website, there’s a blog that we don’t have many messages in there, but I wrote a blog about, you know, how well the show went, and I put some figures in there, (https://www.scalemodelchallenge.com/smc-2024-recap/) but also some perspective on the future. one of the things that I wrote is that I think that we reached the limit of different vendor stands. Because we had over 150 vendor stands this year with 173 or 174 different vendors because some share the stand, and some of them I didn’t even know were there, so they came unannounced. They just joined with a guy that had two tables, or one table and they shared it. I think if they would have told me then I would have put them on the list. But anyway, I don’t think we will expand much from there. We’ll just be more…picky on who we have.
It’s not that every year there are people that are not coming back that were there. To be very honest, this year, were very few of them did not return. I think there were, maybe even not even a handful that were there last year and weren’t there this year. No, well, maybe bit more, but no more than eight or nine. The rest all came back. Plus, we had a lot of new ones as well. But we just have to be careful that we don’t overdo it because especially in the figure section there was a lot of… well, not necessarily competition because they’re all selling their own figures, of course, but let’s say that originality might be a criteria next year. I don’t know. It’s very difficult.
Chris
I had trouble seeing it all this year. Obviously, I was behind my own stand, but I still think there was stuff I missed because there were so many vendors selling so many things.
Robert
I think this year I only went through the large hall where you were. We spoke briefly, for 10 seconds. I saw part of that hall. Obviously, I saw the stand of Gotha Force.
Chris
The bouncy castle.
Robert
Yeah, the bouncy castle. Exactly. Which also upset some of the vendors that were behind them. And we had a cancellation last minute from a larger vendor. We already moved around stuff, making the floor plan totally worthless in that area. but I didn’t see anything of the, the hall where everybody thinks all the figure people are, well, a lot of them are, but there was also AK and there was also the army painter and there was AMMO and you know, there was also lot of scale modelling things going on there. But anyway, that hall, I didn’t see anything. I went through it, just passing through. That’s it. Didn’t see anything of it. So, I tried to talk to all the new vendors as well, every year. I always fail. I always fail to do that. I speak to a handful of them and that’s it.
Chris
Do you think the growth of the show could have any impact on the character of the show? Or is that something you feel pretty comfortable you can maintain?
Robert
Well, that’s why I’m not looking for expansion. At NH, they used to have a plastic injection moulding show, just before ours. then after that, there was a company, well, a large company that always had their staff party after our show. And they both have a temporarily pavilion placed next to one of the halls, so that was bigger, and you could pass through. But that’s an enormously expensive operation and to be very honest I’m not really looking for more square meters because, like you say, I think the bigger it gets, I think it will change some of the atmosphere as well.
Cause you have to fill up space. And I really don’t like those shows where they have a lot of space and they’re wasting it by making these squares with trade tables or club tables, whatever they are. And then in the middle, there’s just a pile of junk, empty boxe. And everybody takes it along and it just looks like crap. And it’s just wasting their space. And it looks as if they have a huge show, and they do, because they have a lot of square meters, but basically, they could use half of that, if they knew it would use the space more sparsely so they can save a lot of money, actually.
Yeah, I think reputation is a big thing for lot of people. and I think I also heard back that somebody, it was in some form or whatever, that we’ve reached our peak and that from now on it will only go down, and I think “yeah, right, buddy”. I mean, based on what, based on what? I think we haven’t reached our full potential yet.
Chris
Maybe it’s a backhand compliment. Maybe it’s that they don’t think that any show could get better than that. That’s as good as a show can get.
Robert
Well, we can get better. We will get better.
Chris
Well, I was talking to Adrian Davies and Tracy and the guys about this,
Robert
Ha!
Chris
and we said the same every year “This is it can’t get any better than this and every year it does get a bit better than last year.” So, I don’t know how you do it, but you do it
Robert
Those two guys are addicted. I’m a dealer.
Chris
Yeah, yeah, I mean they’re the original American converts Yeah, you gave them a taste and now they can’t stop coming back again and again.
Robert
Yeah, baby. Yeah, baby. Haha
And I really think it’s the complete atmosphere that makes people come back year after year. I’ve been speaking to one of the Americans and I said, this your first time here? Dumb question. No, the first time qas at World Model Expo in 2022, and then he came back last year with his wife. He came back this year with his wife. And that just amazes me when you have a conversation like that with people.
I think it was on Thursday evening that we had that conversation because we were sitting outside because the weather was actually not that bad. It was actually pretty good for October. so we were sitting there with a group of people and was, you hear those stories about why they come back and that they’re so… you know anxious to see the show again and it’s you know… gives me goosebumps every now and then, it’s amazing. I don’t start crying over it but it’s amazing to also to get the word out.
Chris
It must be very gratifying all the work and everything you put into it. It’s great that people come and everything, but when people really get something like that out of it, it must be very rewarding.
Robert
Yeah, I think so. And of course, there will always be people disappointed, especially in the competition when you don’t win anything or don’t win what you expected. And I saw some faces coming up to the stage this year that I thought, that’s not a happy person, but that’s what it is.
Chris
I’m laughing, sorry. I get a bit of schadenfreude sometimes. It’s just when someone thinks “I should win gold” and they don’t, it’s like, and I’m laughing because I do it too. I think, “yeah, I’m going to do it this year. I’m going to win gold. And I get bronze and I’m like, what the fuck?” But you have to laugh, don’t you?
Robert
Yeah, but you know, that’s what it is. We’ve all been there. We’ve all been there.
And then Per Olaf Lund comes and he puts his stuff next to your stuff and you think, “Okay, that’s it. Let’s go have a beer.”
Chris
It’s like on the one hand, “Per Olav, please don’t bring anything this year, but on the other hand, please do bring it because I’d love to see it.”
Robert
Exactly. You know, if there’s one person that you want to see stuff, then it’s his, and I think that’s the good thing of the show, you know. But you know, it’s difficult to manage your expectations. I mean, I have the same problem. If when I finish something and I bring it to a contest, you hope it wins something. I don’t know. I got stuff on the table here, but yeah.
Chris
You still make models? You got time?
Robert
I start new things every now and then because last summer we went to the UK to the Fen show and we also paid a visit to Warhammer World, and I bought two Warhammer kits. What I’m actually working on is something that was left over from something Margot did a couple of years ago from Warhammer. So yeah, I’m doing something with dice and ghosts, for example. And I still have a couple of AFVs standing and I still have my sculpting nightmare.
I look at a new tank every three, four months. But I get bored as hell if I do the same thing. You don’t do the same thing over and over, but it’s the same routine, more or less. And if I would have persevered in that, I would have probably become a better modeler.
Chris
The biggest problem I have with it now, I mean, I’ve always been an AFV modeler, mainly, but I find now I’ve got a few that could be finished very quickly and very easily, but I just, it’s very hard to find something about it that really intrigues you, if you see what I mean. To come up with an idea of making something different with a vehicle.
Robert
I don’t really care. I just try to make things that I like and I really care about and that really have, well, yeah, a story or I want to show something with it or I want to, yeah, I do want to tell a story with it, you know, whatever that story may be, it’s, yeah. And I’m not the best modeler in the world, but I, you know, I’ve had my share of medals, gold ones even, some best of shows, and in good competitions and some massive shows. So I’m not complaining there, but I just don’t model enough. The next couple of months I will do some more modelling.
But on the other hand, SMC 2025 is also going through my mind. Because, you know, no matter what, Margott and I, we still talk about things for next year. And with the guys of the club and the team, you know, people come up with new ideas. Well, one thing we had new with this year was that we had for the backpacks, we had a wardrobe, and people just parked their stuff up there and it was full. We never expected that to happen. It was just actually to make sure that people took off their backpacks and just left them without complaining and they were still guarded. But in the contest, we’ll move it outside of the contest from next year.
Because well, one of the guys in the club has been hammering on that. said, listen, you have to do it because all these backpacks in the competition room is a drag. And okay, yeah, you’re right. And last two years, we kind of pushed people to leave their bags at a certain point, but they were unguarded. And I said, listen, you can put down you can ask people to put down the bags, but if just some bozo takes one, because you don’t know who’s it is, right? So, they can take anything. And then we were screwed because we were responsible because we told them to put down the bags outside of the competition room. Because I had a lot of volunteers this year, could actually man that wardrobe. So, we had people taking care of that.
Chris
It’s the little things.
Robert
Yeah, exactly. That’s what makes it from a 9.5 maybe to a 9.52 I don’t know something like that yeah
Chris
I guess you have to work all those, that’s how you improve now, and you work all the little things you can do just to make it slightly better and slightly better.
Robert
Yeah, stuff nobody really cares about probably. for us, sometimes it’s a big thing. Well, you know, if it becomes bigger, you have responsibilities. And that sounds a bit heavy. But that makes that makes it different from other shows as well. If you have a small show where a couple of hundred people show up in a gym, whatever, it’s okay. You know, If people go in and go out, it’s not a big deal. But you know, if you have 5,000 people running around, let’s say 3,500 a day or whatever, responsibility becomes a bit bigger. You really have to think about it. I mean, you can’t dismiss every piece of advice that you get for crowd management or whatever. I mean, you have to think about those things.
People say it’s all so professional. No, we’re just a bunch of amateurs. It’s, you know, a hobby that’s gone wild a bit. But in terms of some things, it has become professional.
Chris
I think you’re kind of the professional in the attitude in that every year you look at it, you look at what worked, what didn’t work, and you sort of critically analyse it and decide to do things differently. And you learn every year on next year. whereas a lot of people seem to take the attitude that it worked fine last year, we’ll just do that next year.
Robert
Well, that’s what killed Euromilitaire, that’s one of the things, just leaning back and you know, there’s nothing going on, nothing, no changes. Because like I said, we tried to listen to people’s advice. And again, it was Tue, he said, listen, in the fantasy painting, the level in the master’s class can be insane. And it is because there a lot of people that paint professionally. They paint, that’s what they do, that’s their job. And it’s very hard for amateurs that only paint once in a while to keep up with that level. So basically, for all categories, we have standard and masters level. And for fantasy painting, we decided to do an intermediate level. So, we have a standard and advanced and the masters next year. So, we said, okay everybody, if you win a gold medal in standard this year, you don’t have to go to masters. It’s up to you. If you want, you can do that. But what you usually see is that if people, especially with fantasy painting, you see a lot of people going to masters, and then get pretty, how to say it, disappointed for a couple of years because they don’t stand a chance at winning anything. And I know that winning a medal is not, or should not be your drive to be in this hobby, but it sure helps to keep the motivation alive, I think, if you every now and then you win something or whatever. People need some gratification for something. Getting medals in contests is one of those things. Getting compliments for people about your work is maybe more fulfilling or more well, to me it is anyway.
Chris
Depends who they’re coming from.
Robert
Well, if Jean Bernard says to me, “I saw this and that diorama from you, and I think it’s just an extremely creative thing”, you know, you used to think, “okay, so what he actually means is that the execution is shit, but the ideas is nice”. But by now, I’ve grown up and I really, I can take a compliment when I get one. yeah.
Chris
One thing I love about Jean Bernard is he doesn’t mince his words. He just tells you what he thinks.
Robert
No, he doesn’t beat around the bush. No. Coming from him, I think that’s a compliment.
Chris
For random people on the internet sometimes, there’s not a lot of value in “well done” or “that’s great” when you see pretty much anything gets the same response.
Robert
No, then again, Margot and I, we travel to so many shows, we see so many people and we see so many contests and I don’t participate in many, but Margot does it more often because obviously she finishes stuff. But still the most important thing of going to a show anyway is to meet people and to talk to people. And obviously we go also to promote our show and try to find judges for next year and try to find people who do workshops for next year. And I know you can always do all that stuff online. And we do mostly online, whatever. But having a face-to-face conversation is unbeatable about any subject, I think. And it keeps the tone polite in most cases as well, which is a big lack on the on the interweb.
Chris
Well, there’s less misunderstanding face to face as well, because you’re getting the vocal tone and the body language and everything else. And sometimes on the Internet, people think, well, he’s having a go and it’s just a slightly weird way it’s phrased or something. And there’s no offense intended. And before you know it, there’s a massive argument.
Robert
Exactly.
And honestly, in a face to face conversation, you can say a lot more in 30 minutes than you can see in typing thousands of words, because you keep sending emails back and forth or messages back and forth and just drives me nuts sometimes, you know, all that online stuff that’s taken so much of your time sometimes. just, wow, yeah, comes with it.
Chris
Well that really answers my last question which was what place do you think physical hobby events have in the second decade of the 21st century?
Robert
Most of them, not a big place. I think only the ones that try to keep up with the times, with the changes in the hobby.
Of course, I’m preaching but yeah, that’s what we do. We try to keep up with the state of the hobby and the development in the hobby in general. And yes, a lot of that happens in figure painting, especially in fantasy figure painting. But that’s not our only goal. I mean, I still want to have more scale modelling in the competition, but also at the show, I’m looking for more scale model manufacturers to be present at the show.
But I think if a show is not really open to changes, it’ll die because then it will be a show for old farts like me over 60 and there’s a decent audience for it. But that audience is getting smaller by nature. I mean, unfortunately, we don’t know nobody who lives forever.
Chris
We stash like we will.
Robert
But you see that unfortunately, well, maybe fortunately actually. Nah, well, I don’t know, given the state of the world, I’m not sure if I would like to see that. Maybe I don’t wanna see the world in 50 years, but it’s, I think that for a lot of these smaller shows, they won’t exist for another decade or two? No, I think within a decade. And I think only the bigger shows or the ones that have something to offer, whatever that may be, will survive. I mean, if you look at the MosonShow (https://www.mosonshow.hu/?page_id=1506), which is a different show than we have, much different, of course, also in atmosphere and everything, but they have a huge competition with a lot of models. So you know, if that’s your thing, it’s a really good show to go to. If that’s what appeals to you, then you know, you will go to that show for the next decade as well.
But, you know, there were a lot of shows that should reinvent themselves, I think. Because one of the other reasons that we have started SMC was that we thought a lot of other shows were boring, and we thought we could do it better.
Chris
Well, a lot of shows, if it’s a whole weekend, you go and in the first three hours you’ve kind of seen the show, that’s it. But I always come away from SMC feeling like this stuff I missed, you know.
Robert
Yeah, that’s what I always say, you know, that’s the idea. You have to go back and say, “I missed this and I missed that, I have to come back next year”, because there is just too much to see in two days. I told you before of the whole competition and even though, I was in the competition room during judging for most of the time, I saw absolutely nothing of the whole competition. I just had to wait for the pictures. It’s ridiculous, isn’t it? I mean you organize a show that you want, that’s a show that you want to see for yourself. You organize it, and you don’t get to see any of it. I enjoy it, but not in the way you intend to enjoy it. But I just get the gratification and the joy of just seeing the only smiling faces. I mean, it’s unbeatable. It’s just great. But like I said, we will have some changes. Nothing too dramatic actually, I mean, maybe it sounds more than it will be. It’s just a bit shifting stuff from A to B and being a bit more spacey. I mean, I mean, the NH is not going to expand anyway, because they still have to recover from the pandemic, like a lot of those companies. so yeah, so I’m really not looking for more square meters. I think we’re fine as it is, keeps the atmosphere nice. And it’s like you say yourself, I mean, you don’t have enough time to see everything anyway. Whether you’re behind the stand or not. If you were a visitor, you still don’t see everything.
Yeah, I think especially shows, I’ve been to a, let’s not name anything, but I’ve been to a bigger show where I didn’t even need three hours to get around. And I was there for two days. And I was like, “yeah, right. What the heck am I doing here?” It was just boring stuff. That’s a bit sad actually. So, the only thing you end up is drinking more than during the day because otherwise you get bored.
Chris
Quantity is not always quality.
Robert
No, exactly. because, you know, people say, you might be the biggest show in the world. I don’t know. I don’t care. First of all, Shizuoka in Japan is much bigger. It’s a much different show, but it’s much bigger. Yeah, but then again, I don’t care. mean, it’s not a pissing contest. I just want to make the show as good as I can make it. And we have a great team that that helps establishing that,and they’re all enthusiastic for next year already. So yeah, what more can I wish for?
Chris
Well, that’s probably the perfect place to end. So Robert, thank you very much.
Robert
Yeah, yeah, thank you. You’re welcome. Thank you.
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I think it is especially interesting that Robert and the SMC team is so focused on being a truly good show, rather than the biggest, and that character and nature of the show are his primary concern, I think it augers very well for the future and as we always say, if you haven’t been, you really do need to go, and remember ALL are welcome at SMC. You can find everything you need at Scale Model Challenge.com
Although I have been away, I have an exciting lineup of shows planned for the next couple of months, including the return of the series where two modellers interview each other, a new format episode about the anatomy of a project, and of course more themed episodes on different philosophical aspects of and approaches to, model making.
All that remains for me to do is to thank Robert and Scale Model Challenge for their continued support, and to thank the Model Podcast Patreon Patrons
If you would like to support the show for any amount from $1 a month, please go to patreon.com/themodelphilosopher. There are costs associated with running this show, and I would like to be able to increase the offer for those that support it, so please do support if you can
Remember, you can hear other model podcasts of many different styles and flavours at modelpodcast.com
And don’t forget, you can find an illustrated transcript of this, and other shows at modelphilosopher.com
Thanks for reading, and enjoy your modelling.
