For some weeks now I have been telling you about our fantastic sponsor, my favourite modelling show in the world: Scale Model Challenge. Today we will be hearing from the main organiser of the show, Robert Crombeecke, and from head ordnance judge, and former guest on the show, Ivan Cocker, and from head figure judge and professional miniature painter, Fabrizio Russo

The guys sat down with me this week to talk judging, tell us about the style of contest at SMC, and to tell us more about the latest news from the show.

Chris
Thank you for joining us in this special interview for the Model Philosopher, We are here to talk about Scale Model Challenge, which is my favourite show in the modelling calendar.

 I think everything about it is geared towards excellence in a model show. And one thing that I always love, and I think stands head and shoulders above events of a similar nature is the contest. So here today we have Robert Crombeecke, Ivan Cocker and Fabrizio Russo to talk

Now, why don’t you quickly introduce yourselves, so people know who you all are. Robert, why don’t you go first?

Robert

Okay, my name is Robert Crombeecke. I am the main organizer of SMC, also the founder of the show. I started in modelling roughly 25, almost 30 years ago, since 2007 trying to make the difference and I am married to Margot and she’s also in the hobby painting miniatures figures even crazier than I ever was in the hobby so she’s she’s very fanatic about her painting and we both travel together to shows, visiting other shows, obviously trying to promote our own event, but also to see how other people are doing this. And this whole organizing thing has become a main part of the hobby itself. So a little bench time for me, but I think it’s all worth it at the end of the day. So that’s me in a nutshell.

Chris

Ivan, how about you?

Ivan Cocker

https://modelphilosopher.com/modelling-history-with-ivan-cocker/Hi, I’m Ivan Cocker from Malta. So I’ve honoured again to be head judge at SMC. I’ve been into this field for I think eight years now. And I’ve been in international competitions since 96. Started off as a judge and then moving on as head judge at SMC. I take care of ordinance. We have quite a team of selected judges, quite a vast category as well in ordnance. My background, I have touched almost all military parts in modelling. Started work from AFVs, dioramas, figures. Nowadays, it’s my profession being a modeler as well. I take care of models of inside museums and conservative and even take care of very old models. So it’s something quite different. What’s modelling for me, especially shows like this, is the sharing aspect of it and meeting quite a spectrum of friends and something positive about it. It’s an experience. And that simply makes a difference. (check out our interview with Ivan https://modelphilosopher.com/modelling-history-with-ivan-cocker/)

Chris

Fabrizio:

Fabrizio RUSTO Russo

Hello, I’m Fabrizio from Milan. I started as a painter. I’m a professional painter since 2001. It’s a job for me all day. And I really like it. It’s so easy. Before painting three -dimensional, I was a traditional painter, but when I started painting miniatures, I never stopped. So this is my hobby and my life and my job. I did a lot of judges during this period. And the first time I was in SMC was as a judge. It’s a very high level contest, you know.

And so there are strong names, but not only strong names. So you can find easily beautiful art in all the people around. So it’s very interesting. And as Robert said, it’s different from the other. This year,

I have the opportunity to be a judge with Ivan. I’m so happy about it. It’s the first time for me. So we’ll see. I’m so electric about it.

Chris

And you’re taking over figures, right? Which is a fantasy, historical, figure diorama. It’s quite a range, isn’t it? Like Ordnance is a big range of categories there.

Fabrizio RUSTO Russo

Yeah, the contest is very strong, as I said before, I think I can easily say that as a median quality, it’s probably the highest in the world. So, yeah,  it’s the kind of contest that you have to be prepared to take part in .  When you prepare something for a contest, there are two options. You have to be focused on your way to move your standard. And another one,” I’m okay, I take part because I’m ready to”. So that’s not the way to go to SMC. You have to take care of everything before the show.

Chris

All right, now I’ve been lucky enough to put in a couple of judges briefings and there is a very strong philosophy to this show about finding the good in things. Ivan, can you tell us about that?

Ivan Cocker

So at SMC, our philosophy is open system. But when we start off with the briefing with the judges, we always do a very good talk. And we like to push the idea that we go on a positive thinking. So what is exactly positive thinking? It is easy to try to find mistakes in a model.

It’s easy for any judge to try. There’s no perfect model. So that’s something… It comes automatically. So we try to push the judges to look at what’s good in a model. it’s more a positive thinking. So what’s the best thing the modeler tried to come up with this work of art? [What has] he tried to show us. So we push that very much in the judges. So, and we are very selective how we team up our judges. And so far we can say it’s always working. This kind of thinking.

Fabrizio RUSTO Russo

Yes, I agree. totally agree. It’s a, as I told before, it’s a very strong competition. So the judge side is difficult because of the level and because you’re scared to do mistakes too. So it’s something that you can easily have on a show. It’s so important to be focused on your way of judges and that’s very hard to do.

Chris

I think although Fabrizio you said that the median quality of the show is very high, it’s fair to point out that anyone can enter. It’s not an elitist show in any way. And the beginner’s categories are always well supported. And I think when we’re judging beginners, it’s fair to say that you really are looking for the best. You’re not looking to penalize them or to not reward them. You’re looking to find what they do well and to encourage it and push it for them.

Fabrizio RUSTO Russo

Absolutely, yeah, you always have. When somebody put their own figure on the table, it’s part of his heart. So you don’t have to go with a knife because you are the judge. No, it’s wrong. So there are always methods to say something to improve or something. that you didn’t understand because there are also details that you can’t understand in the message of the artist. So that’s another point.

Chris

Some people say, Fabrizio, that contests tend to encourage figure painters to paint towards what judges want, to kind of preserve their reputations and income, and that maybe there are certain styles and techniques that judges are looking for. Do you think that’s the case or do you think it influences the culture of miniature painting?

Fabrizio RUSTO Russo

I think the best way to approach is always your own research in art. Let’s call him art, art because it’s quite similar. I think the best way is find your way to express each kind of message you want to give to your models.

It’s not so easy to share it with public, but there will be something. When you judge and on the other side, when I judge, I always try to find something more than technique. Technique is an important part of the judgment, obviously, but it’s the academic side of modelling, like the academic side of painting or sculpting and each one of the traditional art culture. that’s very important to me. So if I have to say something about how to take part in a show, try to find your answer, try to find your own question and your answer to each details in your model.

Chris

Do you enjoy seeing something completely new, completely original? Well, maybe original is a strong word, but something different. Is it something that you look for, something unusual, surprising in the work that you’re judging?

Fabrizio RUSTO Russo

Yeah. It’s not so easy to find something new and original because the worst side of modelling is that it’s static. So the typical methods for modelers is to go for a static way, not only in the technical. but also in their own mind. Yeah, sometimes it’s part of, like in my case, it’s part of the job because you have to answer to customers or everyone wants something by you. But when you have to give your own touch, is something different and that’s the part where you can put your art,  give something more, your message. Message is something that in art is so important and find something like this is not easy because if not it could be the medium quality.

So sometimes we find the extra point of the figures.

Chris

So what’s the actual criteria you’re looking for when you’re looking at figures?

Fabrizio RUSTO Russo

me. As I said, when I watch on the tables, it’s something that attracts me immediately. So it’s not the technical aspect. The technical aspect, especially masters, is something that you can easily find in each display. Everything is wonderful painted, wonderful sculpted, so it’s so easy to find the super quality in technique. But harmony, colors, or just a little movement, also a little, I don’t know, conversion, create something that is not that kind of figure that you can buy on the table and paint, but it’s something that you have made by your own. it’s, I think it’s, yeah, yeah, yeah, customizes something that creates more aspect, more point that I want to see on the table. My judges also.

Chris

Ivan, how about ordinance? What are you looking for? Judging ordinance.

Ivan Cocker

So we have to split, I think, even the mentality in ordinance from beginner, to standard, to master. So I feel from each step, especially when you start from beginners, it’s a step to follow up from one leading to the other. So someone, especially that enters standard, his expectations are to gain up to masters.

Each category, ordnance is split in diverse categories. We have everything that is not figuring in a way. We have from dioramas, from AFVs, aircraft, sci -fi, ships, vehicles. But still, what we look at is the presentation, the skills involved in building up these models. And finally, it’s the final product that you have on the table. I always emphasize as well, even when I speak to modelers, take care of everything from research, finishing, presentation, even the base. Because sometimes you see this, I hate to say it, ugly thing, a magnificent model and then on a piece of wood that you don’t find it on the floor and pick it up. So I feel that, I used to say to my friend in Malta, you’re going to a wedding with a full suit and with torn up shoes. That’s all, or barefooted. That’s how I see it, honestly. So I think you have to look at everything. So a modeler needs to really, really be nitpicking himself. It’s not the judges that are nitpicking, but the modeler has to be the nitpicker in a way. So it is his showpiece. So put everything, show up what you want to give. It’s a gallery in a way, so show up yourself.

Robert

Some people should actually take a little more notice of the way they present their models. That goes for figures or ordinance. It doesn’t really matter. Sometimes you see pieces that are full with stickers of 2000 other shows that they’ve been on. Or indeed, what Ivan refers to that you see a beautiful piece or at least a very good piece and then it’s just put down on a piece of plywood that they find somewhere or with static grass that is not painted or loose, not glued. If you come too close and you breathe too deep, you inhale all the static grass. And it’s such a shame though.

Ivan Cocker

Hahaha

Chris

hahahaha

Ivan Cocker

It’s a shame. It’s a shame.

Chris

Yeah, it’s like you say, it’s like you put in all that effort and then at the last hurdle you think, “that’ll do”.

Robert

But to set one thing straight, it’s not the most important thing that judges are looking for. It just helps to make your model stand out over the rest. That’s what it is, you know.

Ivan Cocker

Exactly.

Chris

Ivan, do you think that style has homogenized in the vehicle classes over the last few years? I mean, I think there’s a perception that a lot of the same techniques and same models are turning up again and again and again. Do you think competition does that to models?

Ivan Cocker

I think skills are nowadays, they are moving so fast that everyone is learning in a way. In the past we used to go to shows and someone come with a lot of ideas and okay those ideas used to stand up and you used to be like a show puller in a way and then you have a whole year people trying to mimic what this guy has done.

Nowadays with internet it’s basically 24/7 you see it today the following day someone is trying  this technique So basically things are so running fast It’s true sometimes especially master class There is a tendency that you say it’s almost you’re seeing a stereotype thing so overall when you when you look at at models you can say, almost seems that everyone is constantly, improving and everyone is the same level. But when you are a judge and you start scrutinizing each model one by one, you will see the difference. will see there are styles, are fashions and there are schools of thought. I can say everything in a way, but it doesn’t reflect that someone is going to be a fan so you have to do this style to win a medal. I don’t recall that. think judges are good enough to pick up what’s positive and what’s really giving a presentation in a way. It’s saying to them something back when you’re seeing this model. It’s reflecting something to them. So that’s that’s why you get the golds, for example, and that’s why you reward certain medals.

Robert

But I think you can also find that the bigger names in, from what I see in armor, or maybe probably also in aircraft, you can still distinguish a certain signature of that particular model. I think a guy like Lester Plaskit, has his own style, for example. And Fabrizio.

Ivan Cocker

Yes, yes, I agree

Robert

I suppose that’s the same in figures. mean, if you look at it from a distance, you might say, “okay, that all looks awesome”, like you just said. But if you really dig in deep, you can still find the individual touches that certain painters have. I mean, like Arnau Lazaro or Kirill Kanaev or Fabrizio Russo, they all have their own style.

Fabrizio RUSTO Russo

Yeah, that’s true. But as Ivan said, with Patreon or the new aspect of sharing and paid to improve, at the moment, are so many, the level is higher and higher, it’s getting higher and higher. But the interpretation is a bit lower than some years ago. That’s probably the biggest problem we have at the moment because we have very fantastic copy painters, I don’t know how to say it, not original painters. And so that’s a problem also for the, let me call them teachers because when I teach, I always say that this is a path that you have to translate at home by yourself. If not, you will never learn anything. You always copy, copy and copy, and that’s something that remains there. You can copy perfectly Rafaello, but it’s Rafaello, and it’s something that don’t give nothing to you and to him.

Ivan Cocker

You’re just replicating in a way. So that’s something It happens that it’s like art when there’s something in fashion, let’s call it in fashion and someone is following so it’s easy that that there is a fellowship of style But creativity Needs to be pushed. So that’s the winning. That’s the winning part of a model. So someone needs to go to that experiment. It can go bad in a way, but you learn from experimenting. I think that’s something that needs to be pushed.

Fabrizio RUSTO Russo

Yeah, absolutely. It’s something that you go as an academic way. So you have to copy, you have to understand, have to do your… Something that I always say to my students is do your own mistakes. If you don’t do mistakes, it’s impossible to improve, you know, because you don’t know where to go. So really It’s something that you need to do. And when you learn step by step by a video, you can’t do mistake. So try to understand the video and replicate it in at your own. Something that you can do it easily. Like reading a book, you remember something you can explain it.

Ivan Cocker

So obviously what we’re speaking here is we’re discussing a little bit master level. In standard level you accept this. So you have to accept that modelers are following other styles, like, let’s call it copying in a way. But you still see in standard level, in all these years I’ve seen pieces in standard level that are leveled in creativity much more than master level.

Fabrizio RUSTO Russo

Yeah.

Robert

Well, maybe it’s also because of the… If you’re a standard or just a beginning modeler, you like to try things more easily than when you’re a master, because as a master, if you really enter competitions, you probably know what people want to see and what to expect.

Ivan Cocker

That’s true, that’s true.

Robert

And as a novice or somebody that doesn’t care, just wants to do his own thing or her own thing, it can be refreshing actually. Standard classes can be very refreshing to look at. And sadly enough, they’re often overlooked. If you see, if people go to shows and they post the pictures of all the models in the competition,

Very often, if not almost always, they take the pictures of the master classes and the standard classes are often neglected. Often neglected. And that’s sometimes sad because you can find really, really nice creative pieces in the standard classes.

Chris

And sometimes you get the odd person who just doesn’t know how good they are because they don’t they don’t think “I’m a master”. So they enter standard and then, you know, they get a gold that year, their masters next year. So that’s fine. But not many.

Robert

Yep. Yep. Depends on the competition. We require that.

Chris

But I mean, it’s people self -select, don’t they? I think beginners usually know they’re beginners. Maybe they might go in standard, but people have to choose whether they think they’re a standard or a master when they enter.

Robert

Our beginners classes are really for the true beginners. And that’s why we have one ordinance class for beginners. in that class, you can put anything from aircraft, ships, tanks, robots, whatever you want. And in figures, we also have a mixed beginners class for historical and figure painting, because it’s really for the true beginners in the hobby.

Chris

All right, now the criticism that gets levelled either at the show by people who don’t know what they’re talking about. I mean, by people who haven’t been to the show, is that the basic modelling skills and the basics of modelling don’t matter that it’s all about a flashy paint job. What would you say to that?

Ivan Cocker

I totally don’t agree with that. construction and any skills that involves. especially in ordinance, each judge will look into that. nothing is overlooked. For sure nothing is overlooked.

Robert

It’s part of the criteria that we have. And although the criteria that we have are not like a sacred book and the judges don’t follow it under a microscope, for them it’s just a tool, if there is anything. yeah, construction is really part of the judging, at least in ordinance it is.

Ivan Cocker

We don’t use torches, that’s for sure. To highlight and see the… And check the underside. So, but… Obviously, obviously, in each class it’s different. So…

And each team of judges knows how to check things. let’s say you don’t expect bad construction in masterclass for sure. So why you’re in that masterclass? So that’s why you’re in the masterclass. So you have master’s or the skills by that time. So obviously there are different criteria that are looked into. But nothing is overlooked. I think that it’s the only time that judges can penalize, when you have bad construction.

Robert

Well, when it’s very blatant mistakes, then it would cost you points.

Ivan Cocker

Exactly. But obviously, it’s a choice. I think we have to also say how open system works, because some people don’t understand it. Each modeler has his own gallery in a way. normally in its category, you put X amounts of pieces. So sometimes you have three or four pieces in that section. And the judges look at  that. That’s why we say sometimes you’re not competing one next to the other but you’re competing by yourself in a way, so the first thing is what what judges do is check that gallery practically and pick your best model out of that. It’s rarely done but sometimes it happens they select all the all the pieces and you’re awarded for all the pieces

But that’s how it works. So people need to understand, model makers need to understand how open system works in a way.

Chris

And you’re judging against the standard of the hobby at the moment, not against the guy next to you basically.

Ivan Cocker

So it depends on each category. So if we’re speaking master level, we know that the standard is getting high each year. The benchmark is always being lifted. The bar is getting up. yes, to reach that expectations, we know the standard. That’s why how it works out, how you select the judges.

In each category we know that all of them are master modelers. So that’s one aspect how we managed to get the standard in a way. So their positive thinking in a way and their contribution reflects in the standard. Each section has their particular modelers. So let’s say if the team is judging dioramas, they are all dioramists. You don’t have someone that doesn’t do dioramas and you’re judging dioramas for example, so that’s something we really work hard and we really push so that’s how we managed to get the standard in a way

Fabrizio RUSTO Russo

I, think in painting, painting standard probably is one of the most complicated category because when you have selected the goals that probably are easier than in other categories, the level, the rest of the displays are all on the same level. So it’s not so easy to find why you choose silver or bronze for that display or figure. as a judge you have to be concrete in this kind of system and this is not so easy so it’s really a complicated category. In the same category but in master, painting master for example, is complicated because of the numbers. Numbers in SMC are huge. So when you are on, I don’t know, 80 or 100 displays, it’s complicated to keep in mind what you have done on gold and why. Because the most important part is why you gave gold to one figure and not on the other one because they’re all beautiful. So you have to understand why you are giving gold, why you giving silver and why you have a later why you have to move something. So it’s very, very harsh to stay on the side of a table. So you learn when you judge a contest like this, all the contests, but in particular a strong contest like SMC, you learn a lot in models. So it’s very, very important to have the opportunity to judge. So when I talk to Robert to select some judges, I ask for some new names because I want to improve and increase the number of people who have the opportunity to understand what it means to be on the other side of the table because you will learn a lot, will improve your, also your style. To me was so important to improve. My first judgment in an important show was Le Petit Soldat and I was one of the first fantasy painter invited by the organiser so it was a shock for me because I’ve seen something like that. yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it’s very important to improve our list of judges. Also because if not, the system and the methods are always the same. So we have to change.

Robert

Yes.

Chris

What do you think makes someone a good judge Fabrizio?

Fabrizio RUSTO Russo (38:23.882)

That’s a strong question. I think you have to be sincere and try to be honest, you know, but  also something that you don’t have to do, is punish another artist because it’s not something that comes from your style. It’s so important because sometimes if you don’t recognize something that you do easily, that’s not good. No. It’s something wrong in this case. So it could be done in a different way. it’s fantastic. It’s another fantastic way to have the same results.

It’s very complicated to select medals. So, sincerity is the most important part of your job. I think.

Robert

and open -minded.

Fabrizio RUSTO Russo

An open mind. Yeah, yeah, sure. Sure, Yeah, that’s what I said. We are static. We need also to… open our minds too.

Chris

Now you both run pretty small judging teams in comparison to some other events. How do you get so many models judged in what, four or five hours at SMC?

Robert (

What do mean small?

Chris

Well, I mean, there are some shows, which I don’t want to name, but they’ve got like 300 judges. And I mean, how many judges do you have at SMC?

Robert

Okay, yeah they have three, two hundred judges. Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.

I think we have 56 or so this year. Without these two guys.

Chris

But you’re judging two and a half thousand models roughly, something like that.

Robert

Well, it’s five, six hours. It’s a job, trust me. It’s beyond hobby. It’s beyond hobby to get that straight.

Ivan Cocker

Basically have to talk to us after we are finished so we are drained completely drained out with our eyes color red

Chris

I think the judges are usually the only people you don’t see in the bar afterwards because they just gone to bed. Just worn out.

Robert

Some of them actually do, yeah.

Fabrizio RUSTO Russo

Yeah.

Ivan Cocker

That’s true. That’s true.

Robert

that’s also the reason why we sometimes switch, I mean we don’t have the same judges every year and also that’s one of the reasons because I also want them to enjoy the show for once.

Chris

56 judges doing  2300 to 2500 models in six hours. How do you do it?

Ivan Cocker

You have to be a judge to understand that. (haha)

Robert

If there’s a display, you look at all the pieces in the display and then you select as a team, you decide, okay, that one is getting the award or what Ivan said before, all three, four or 10 pieces in that, so you can award the whole display. But no, no, the idea is that they look at all the models.

I think maybe Fabrizio can enlighten that, I think people often see, I think the one that really stands out, often you can see that one immediately. Yeah, but not always, but you can.

Fabrizio RUSTO Russo

Yeah, it’s bad to say, but it’s easy to find the golds in a show. Maybe you have to check two times to be sure, but it’s the easiest part because there a few, not 2000, there are only a few.

Robert

Yes.

Fabrizio

So it’s easy to find your favourite displays in categories. So you check all, when I start, I check all the displays and then I decide which are the golds. And then go down, silver and bronze. Then check once again to be sure.

Why? Because sometimes there are figures that are not exactly gold or not exactly silver or bronze, so you have to decide in another part of the judgement. You turn back many times on each display.

Robert

And how do your judges work, Ivan?

Ivan

So, similar perception, but it’s always worked in a team. Sometimes it is very difficult between, I think most arguments are to select. So sometimes it takes time there to select from a display. And when you’re part of the team, you learn a lot, you learn a lot because something we try to do is combine different mentalities, different judges.

Robert

Yes, that’s right.

Ivan Cocker

So that works out quite good so that you have different reasoning and different opinions. Because if you have three judges that have similar opinions, it’s not always the result might be positive. So when you have different mentalities, you create discussion between them. And so that’s how they select the best out of that category.

And some people think that there might be someone who’s leading up and trying to influence the others, but I don’t recall that from any teams that I have seen so far. You have people trying to come up with their own opinions, but when you start hearing the discussions, it’s a real learning factor.

For me, honestly, judging is a learning experience so far.

Robert

And that’s also where the head judges come in, that if there is a discussion, and for example, they really hear that some of the things don’t make any sense, or if there is really a discussion about real topics, they are the first ones that have to make a final decision or drop some ideas of how people can maybe change their perspective into a more workable way or…

Ivan Cocker

Exactly.

Robert

I mean, also being a head judge is not something ceremonial.

Ivan Cocker

No, not at all.

Robert

It’s also a job.

Ivan Cocker

Tough one. Especially when you have certain arguments. A very tough one.

Chris

I’ve seen it happen where we haven’t agreed on a team and Ivan’s come over to straighten us out. And you always do it the same way. You don’t tell us what to do. You remind us what the criteria is and you remind us what we’re looking for. And usually that’s enough between us then we can make a decision. A little nudge back onto the, you know, onto how to assess it.

Ivan

My philosophy is always I’m trying to see that the judges see the positive thing in the modeler, in that model. So you don’t really like, I don’t like to see someone trying to penalize that model in a way, or minimize it. So I try to bring up the judges, feel something for it and try to push it to benefit to the modeler. If you’re in doubt in a certain way to certain aspects, give benefit to the modeler. That’s something I try to push very often. And I tried so far not to influence. I never influence judges. I try to see what they try to come up with in a way.

Chris

How do you do that many models in six hours?

Robert

one of the things I always say in the judges briefing is that the judging are here to judge the models. Sometimes I’ve been at shows where they have been very cozy gathering the judging team and start elaborating on the model about what brand it is and how they did it.

Stick to the job and do whatever is necessary to get the job done as fast as possible, but in a thorough way. So try to avoid the small talk because I’ve seen it happen. I’ve judged at many shows as well and I’ve witnessed it and it just takes up a lot of time that you don’t want to spend.

Well, you want to spend it in the bar afterwards, not during the judging. That’s one thing, from my side. I don’t know if the other gentlemen have another idea, but yeah.

Fabrizio

No, no, it’s correct, it’s correct.

Chris (49:34.188)

I think you’re kind of saying the same thing. I don’t want to say professionalism because it’s not a paid job, but yeah, you use your time efficiently and you do it because your judges know what they’re doing. They do it quickly and they do it well and that’s how it works. What do you think Fabrizio?

Fabrizio

Yeah, it’s something, everything here is complicated. So it’s really part of our, complicated our life. So it’s okay. But I must agree with Ivan, when he said that you have to push, you have to push to find something better, to give more quality to the show, to each modeler. So I think in a contest like this, little details or a first impression is something that gives you the general idea. So if the first impression of a model is that you want to understand it better and attract you, it’s one of your favourite models. And then you search for something, you understand it better and better and so it grows up also your way of judgment in that display and all the other display related because every contest is different and so each model can be judged in a different way in a different contest so you have to focus on that moment it’s so important. So the first impression is very, very important when you judge.

Robert

The other thing is, although part of the judges, especially in the, or specifically in the figure part of the contest, they’re professionals. But at the end of the day, we’re all hobbyists and we all in love with the hobby and we love to see awesome models. And that’s where it becomes difficult not to elaborate on how wow something is, but stick to the job and that’s so you have to be a little bit forgiving of course but yeah we still have to push the judges every now and then to move onwards yeah

Ivan

That’s true, that’s true. In fact, judging is something almost, I say, personal in a way. You’re so intimate with the model. Sometimes you have the model in your hand. it’s quite something in a way. So that’s true. That’s true.

Robert

I recall times when I judged and I saw fantastic models and I kept getting back to it, you know, five, six times to just admire it.

Chris

It is a privilege, judging.

Robert

It is.

Ivan

Yes, it is.

Chris

like you were saying earlier, that you’re looking at it. The only person who’s looked at that model arguably more closely than you have, was the person who made it. No one else has looked at it as hard as that.

Robert

Yep, that’s true.

Chris

And I really don’t like audience chosen awards. You some shows have it where people cast votes on which model wins. No one looking at those models is gonna look at it as closely as a judge does. And you see things when you’re judging that people walking past probably might not pick up. Particularly, you know, it tends to be the more showy models that win those things.

Robert

Yeah, but a public’s choice or whatever you call it, you know, can also have its charm. I know usually it’s the biggest and the most colorful piece on the table and not necessarily the best, but I do recall, I think I mentioned it in another podcast as well. We once had a Best of Show by Aitor Azkue away from Spain, big aircraft diorama, and that one also got selected.

We had the kids, the children at the show, they could vote for the children’s favourite or something and they chose that one. Maybe that was a lucky draw, but it was a good choice. It was a good choice. Yeah, you do, you do.

Fabrizio

Wow.

Chris

But you do learn a lot as well looking at these things.

Fabrizio

choice is also influenced by internet, Instagram.

Ivan

Yes.

Robert

and friends that are present at the show.

Ivan

Exactly.

Chris

There’s a consistent standard at the show. How do you maintain that standard in the quality of the results year on year?

Robert

Is there a consistency? I don’t know.

Chris

I think there is, think in the contest, certainly the contest results, they’re very consistent.

Robert

I think it all comes down to selecting the right judges. And you know, it’s not always perfect. I admit, I’m the first one to admit that, but I think it’s the way that we select the judges because we’re very particular on that. We really want to have people that know what they’re talking about being a good painter or a good model that doesn’t make them, per se, a good judge. We’ve also had that experience, but, you know, I mean, we’ve had a lot of judges over the years and, like I said, there’s several reasons why we change them every now and then, but, I think, yeah, I think it’s just the way that we select the judge. We don’t select judges at the door. I mean, it’s not that somebody comes in, “We need a judge for the ships. Can you spare a minute of your time?” No, we don’t. I mean, we invite the judges months before.

Also for practical reasons as well, because they have to get their hotel and get arranged on a trip and blah blah blah blah. There’s a lot to arrange for people. But yeah, I think that’s one of the reasons.

Chris

but you also know you’re gonna have the judges you need on the day. If you select them, they’ve confirmed, then you know.

Robert

Yeah, well, there’s always the occasional person that has to cancel for whatever reason. I everything can happen, you know. I think we all know health issues or family matters or whatever. Anything can happen, but yeah. So in that case, we have to find a replacement judge, but even then we are very picky.

Chris

Now, Robert, you said before on the podcast, the Sprue Cutters Union, I think when we had you on, that you started SMC to make the show you wanted shows to be. What was it that you wanted to do differently?

Robert

my God. Don’t get me started on that. Well, first of all, think, and I actually hate this, but to say this because I hate the word, because everything has to be an experience these days. Even doing the grocery shopping. But I think that’s one of the things. It has to be an experience. I  expect people to come over for two days. Well, at that time, still one day, but two days, I expect them to spend a lot of money to get that to the show because they have to travel from far or from near, doesn’t matter, but they still have to travel. They have to pay to get in. They have to pay to enter the competition. So you want to offer people, well, you want an experience.

In my opinion, they have to leave the show with the idea that they still have missed a part of it because there wasn’t time enough to see everything there is to see or to experience. And I think that it took a while to get there, of course. mean, it wasn’t there from day one. But I think nowadays I hear from a lot of people that they spend two full days at the show and still have the feeling that they missed a lot of it. And for me, that’s great. Not for them, but for me, that’s great because it will probably mean they will come back next year. Come on, we have people coming over from as far as New Zealand, from Japan, Taiwan, China, from the States, from South America.

I mean, it’s not just slapping a couple of tables in the room and putting models on it like some other shows unfortunately still do after so many years. It’s, you know, you want to offer something.

And I think, well, I think it all comes down to that we care for the people that come to the show and we respect them. And if that, whether those are the vendors or the visitors or the contest participants or the clubs, and of course we cannot keep everybody happy, we’re not a pizza. And there will always be somebody that has a complaint about one thing or the other, but we respect them.

With respect, I also mean that if people enter the competition, we ask the judges to really look at all the models that those people enter. I mean, we ask them to pay for it. So at least we have to give them the courtesy to look at their models, even if they’re not that good, doesn’t matter. I think that’s one of the other reasons that  one of the things that I try to change is that we have clear rules and criteria for the competition. although, and again, they’re not all carved in stone and things can be a bit, how to say, can be a bit gray sometimes, even for judges, but at least we try to give guidelines for everybody. And I also realized that not everybody reads it.

And that’s what Fabrizio said earlier, if you come prepared to the show, you read the criteria because then you know what is asked in that particular class, what your model should live up to, to some extent. And if your model doesn’t take the majority of the boxes of those criteria, then you might consider putting them in a different class. I mean, yeah, that’s the way it is.

I think the whole appearance of the show, I mean, we cover all the trading tables with the black table collage. We do that the same with the competition area. I think we have a proper lighting system over the models. We changed the lights last year to give a better colour rendition, which is especially an important aspect for the figures. We have proper display tables. They are not too low, not too high. I think unless you’re in a wheelchair, might be issue sometimes.

I think the whole show, it’s…Although it’s, it’s very busy and it’s really full with vendors. It’s still spacious because the aisles in general between all the rows of tables are quite good compared to a of other shows. So you can still breathe every now and then. And I think one of the major aspects that we have is that we have an unequalled number and variety of vendors at the show. I mean, this year, I think we have 172 different companies there divided over 150 something stands. So some shares stand, but there’s really that many different companies.

Chris

And a lot of it’s really unique kind of, for want of a better phrase, boutique business. Yeah.

Robert

Yeah, there was a lot. think there are a lot of also like startups and smaller companies, especially in the figure, because especially in the figure branch are a lot of manufacturers nowadays. And, and they all want an opportunity to present themselves at the show, which is quite remarkable, actually, because if you really look at it, you I mean, internet is a big is the thing. I mean, people learn on internet people buy mainly on internet. And someone once said to me that shows are dying. And maybe some of them are. But I think shows are still still important for people to actually see models live instead of on the screen, which is still a big, which is still a big difference. And, and I think a lot of people want to see what I want to have in their hands what they buy before they buy it still.

So yeah, that’s also one of the reasons that we have so many vendors, I think.

Chris

Now you mentioned registration. Registration closes in two weeks now, three weeks?

Robert

October 6th 10 PM Central European Time. I have to say that. Central European Time because I think last year somebody from America, from Australia complained that they couldn’t register anymore.

Chris

Yeah, I get that when I put this show out, the Australians say, “why isn’t it up yet?”
“Because you live in the future”.

Yeah, they live in the future. Exactly. So I would recommend, not for us, but I would recommend people to pre -register because it saves you a lot of time on the day itself on Saturday. Because at one o ‘clock we close the whole registration system because you can enter on the day itself, but then your registration costs you 20 euros. Doesn’t matter how many models and how many classes, it’s just 20 euros. But if you use the pre -registration system and you pay before 10 PM CET on October 6th, you only pay 12.50 Euros. So regardless of the number of models and classes. So there is a 7 .50 advantage which you can spend on, or a cheese sandwich, whatever.

Fabrizio

beers.

Chris

3D printed accessories.

Robert

yeah, yeah, yeah, haha

Chris

Joking aside though, I mean, I’ve always pre -registered since you brought it in, I think. And when you get there, the queue’s really long and you might think, why did I bother? But that queue moves fast because the pre -register system is really smooth.

Robert

Yeah, well, have before we had two lines for the pre -registered models and we now we have three rows. So if you come into the company, so if you pre -registered and you come into the registration room, just look a little bit up and there are three banners hanging and then you have we have the first letters of the surname. So you have probably A to whatever and then. So we have three different lanes on Alphabet of your surname so please look at that and then you find the right line because you might be standing in the wrong queue.

Chris

No forms to fill out, just put your sticker on your model, put it in the right place and you’re off perusing the competition or the traders or whatever else you want to fill your time with. So definitely worth doing ahead of time.

Robert

Yeah. Yeah. And for the people that attend the early morning workshops that start at 10 o ‘clock or whatever, they can come in at 9 .30, so a little bit earlier than the rest and then bring the models to the table on Saturday. Because we do not, we don’t have, we’re not ready yet on Friday to have models or anybody from the registration team actually on Friday present to, so you cannot bring the models on Friday.

Chris

All right, , all the information for that is at http://scalemodelchallenge.com . And you will also find all the competition classes, the criteria, and as much information as you could possibly want to decide where your work of art is gonna be put this year in the contest. So go along and read all of that and you’ll get all the information you need to know what to expect. So there’s no excuse. All right, now this is the bit where I always ask, any other thing I should be asking you about, guys?

Robert

Well, I have some things to say about what people can expect more this year. Well, except for what I just mentioned. Well, we have some new vendors present. There’s also a launch of a new aircraft model brand with a quite extraordinary stand, as far as I can tell from now. That’s going to be pretty interesting. We have a discussion panel as well on Saturday led by Tue Kae. So I think that will be very controversial knowing Tue. And he has invited some people and we will announce it shortly about what’s going to happen and what he’s going to talk about.

There’s a speed painting contest as well on Saturday afternoon when the judging starts because then the competition room closes for visitors. So we have a speed painting competition on the main contest which is run by our friends from Chestnut Inc. And they have some lovely prizes and they will put up their advertisements also very shortly. We have three Dutch artists that are

exhibiting their work. We have Harry Arling, aka Kosmotroniks (Check out Harry’s Model Philosopher interview here https://modelphilosopher.com/kosmotroniks-with-harry-arling/ ), for those who went to the World Model Expo, the guy with the weird helmet and the whole contraption on it. But he makes really, really great stuff. He has an exposition as well. We have two local guys. We have Wijnand Riese, who is actually a cinematographer.

but he’s also an artist, he’s a canvas artist, but he also makes miniature buildings, completely scratch built from carton, which he’s exhibiting at the show. But he’s also, well, he loves Japan. He was married to a Japanese wife, he has some of his Japanese paintings and other paintings up as well. And we have Joris van Oss, who is a writer and a terribly funny guy as well. And he makes miniature landscapes and box dioramas. And he is also exhibiting at the show. And all these guys are making stuff that is more or less related to a hobby, but not really our hobby.

But what I really want to show people is that there are more ways to look at the miniature world. And this is something that we want to expand more into next year as well.

We have a wonderful, wonderful magazine that we are giving for free to all the visitors at SMC this year. And it’s a magazine that was very skillfully made by some guy from England, by Chris Meddings. And there are contributions from a lot of people that we’ve asked to write something about why they think SMC is show that everybody should go to. So it’s basically one big advertisement for SMC without becoming too cheesy, actually, because I think the stories in there are pretty good. And I didn’t ask people to be only positive, but the thing is they all are. So that’s whole thing. And of course, from every contributor, there’s a gallery of their work in there.

Chris

There’s some really beautiful work in there. It’s such a joy to do layouts working with such fantastic pictures. Really beautiful stuff. And all the stories, they’re from the heart, aren’t they? All personal stories about their experience of SMC.

Robert

Yeah. And some of them are very some of them reading some of these stories back, I became very emotional about it as well because, no, because there were some memories from the past that are really and some were just fun and probably nobody will understand what they’re writing about because it’s really an incorrect joke. yeah, it’s really but it’s a beauty. It was a beautiful magazine.

I think I almost 800 kilograms of magazines three or four times because it was delivered unannounced at our doorstep. I wasn’t at home, so Margot was the lucky one. So when I came home, the whole living room was full with boxes with books. But it’s really a magazine printed on high quality paper, so that’s really fantastic.

And we have a commemorative piece by Karol Rudyk Art. The concept art is by Paul Bonner and the 3D sculpting was done by Isabella Barone. It’s a stunning piece.

And Paul Bonner himself will be there at the show as well. Why do I forget him? Paul is also painting miniatures and he has his stuff on display at the show. in the judges’ cabinets or in between the judges’ cabinets,

Paul is  also exhibiting his painting endeavours, so I think that will be very worthwhile looking at. That’s really fantastic too, yeah.

Fabrizio

It’s a milestone because Paul Bonner is a myth.

Robert

Yeah, I know, I know, I know, know. Yeah, that’s it. I’m really looking forward to that. He’s really a nice bloke to talk to as well. yeah, there’s another thing I wouldn’t like to say about the hotel reservations because usually at this time people start cancelling hotel rooms because they cannot come. At the SMC website, there is a page that says, where is it traveling to?

You can find the link to booking the hotel rooms and I really recommend people to keep trying it because luckily it works with an automatic system nowadays again. So I think it would be a good idea that if you still need a room or have booked a room outside of the venue, you can still cancel that when you have a room at the hotel.

I think it will be worthwhile to check our website every now and then and go to the page that says plan your visit. You can find it on the homepage two or three times and you can click and then you can find the link to the reservation system of the venues hotel. I suggest you keep trying it because literally every year there will be like 25, 30 rooms that are not attended to at the end because people do cancel every year.

About the competition app, Emperor, we get a lot of emails now that people say that they try to log in with last year’s password. The thing is, we never keep any data because of GDPR, security, whatever. If you enter the competition, if you want to enter the competition now, or register your models, you have to make a new account every year.

Just saying, just saves me a lot of emails if people hear this.

Chris

To be honest, it’s really quick and easy. It’s easier creating an account than it is to remember your password. So just create an account.

Guys, anything else?

Ivan

I think it’s an experience you can’t miss. That’s what I say. For me it’s a pilgrimage. That’s what I call it.

Fabrizio

Yeah, something that you can’t miss, so I agree, I totally agree. See you there!

Robert

Yeah, see you there, yeah.

Chris

All right, well, we’ll all be there, so you better come too. All right, thanks everyone. I really appreciate you taking the time on a Monday evening to talk this through. If anyone’s got any questions, do look up scalemodelchallenge.com or go to the Scale Model Challenge Facebook page or Instagram and contact Robert and the team

All right. Thanks, everyone. I really appreciate it. Take care.

Robert

Thank you. Bye bye.

Ivan

Bye bye.

That was a great chat with Robert, Fabrizio and Ivan, and I very much enjoyed it. Don’t forget to register your models at Scalemodelchallenge.com right now, and as Robert said, keep trying that hotel link to get your room on site. Staying nearby is great, but staying on site is highly desirable, trust me.

————————————————

Over the last few episodes I’ve had a number of messages and emails I would like to share.

Raphael Shelton writes:
I was amazed by the Marijn and Barry episode. To hear barry talk through some of these questions was fantastic. And every time I hear Marijn talk, I want to just absorb everything he has to say.

Just when I thought you had reached the peak of episodes that would interest me personally, you have Harry Arling. I’ve only known him from his stuff on Facebook, so getting a peek behind the curtain was a treat!

Keep up the great work. I appreciate the thoughtfulness and “pretension” of the Model Philosopher. I really think that these are questions and ideas worth digging into. 

I have some ideas about the basic Why We Model. I’d make it a Venn Diagram of a few circles:
1. Humans are built to create. (Regardless of one’s opinion on the source of that drive).

2. As children, play allows us to learn to navigate the world around us. It is how we internalize things in a safe way.

3. Ownership/Power – By making scale models we are able to exercise power and ownership, even if only in a totemic way, over the real things. Especially  if those things don’t exist in the real world. I don’t mean ownership/power in a bad way. 

In my opinion we create models because of the overlap of these three. You could argue that 2 & 3 are really the same thing. Consider this my draft thesis. 

Cheers!

Raphael

I think Raphael has some very astute observations about why we do this, and I think having some  control over something in our lives is a big part of it.

Rui Matos writes

Excellent interview/talk with Harry Arling!

Having been following Harry works for a long time, have “pested” him a few times, and one thing I regret a lot, is to have failed to buy the book of Kosmotronics!

Not being Art (says who?), not being Scale Modelling (says who?) one thing is certain about Harry’s works:

– They are very refreshing, colourful and always make me smile!

Thank you Chris, and hank you, Harry Arling!

Chris Becker, AKA Beckers Models, writes

Really enjoyed that one Chris, and it spurred me to have a little discussion about “modelling/art” on my own channel. That joy of creating something is really the highlight for me and Harry articulated it quite well!

Chris has done an excellent video on his channel about this, look up Beckers Models on youtube for his recent video on modelling and art. I don’t 100% agree with his definition of art, but as there is no definitive definition, its as valid as mine, or anyne elses and Chris presents it in a thorough and well constructed argument, all while demasking a model! Philosophy and ASMR, whats not to like?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb1AINOtZvw

Kostas Papadimitriou writes

Very interesting conversation, thank you both (Marijn and Barry) and of course Chris also.

I have some strong objections on THE rule (never putting something parallel to the edge of your base), which is IMHO the most flawed rule, although it works (as flawed as the thirds rule for two dimensional works, which also works). Of course I’ ve been observing this rule in my dioramas and dioramists are trained to view parallel compositions as wrong even when they are not. To make it short and avoiding writing a complete article on my own, I would redraw THE rule upside down: non parallel arrangement is an easy way for faux dynamism that’s why I view it as flawed, if a parallel arrangement doesn’t work on a particular composition, then the problem is with all the other elements of the composition (detail, colour, contrast, relation of elements) and not with the arrangement, you should use non parallel arrangement only when you can justify its use and when all other means to give dynamism to the composition have failed. The only reason that non parallel arrangement works is because we tend to put the base parallel to the table and the viewer. That’s just my two cent (or half cent). Thank you for your time.

I’m not sure I agree with Kostas, it seems to rely on the assumption that parallel composition is a default and deviation from the default must be justified. But it is not. You could just as easily argue that diagonal composition is the default and deviation to parallel must be justified, but agan, it’s a point of view and all I really want to do with this show is put forward different points of view and share them with you, the listeners.

Kostas, if you are listening, I want to thank you for your regular contributions to the model philosopher blog in the comments sections, I always enjoy your replies


Now, I want to thank our Patrons, and everyone that supports the show. You can support the show at patreon.com/themodelphilosopher, or by leaving a review for the show on your podcast app of choice. You can also help by introducing others to the model philosopher.

A final piece of news, you can preorder ITA3 products for SMC! Just visit insidethearmour.com and email me your order before Monday 23^rd September, Ill invoice you and your order will be waiting at SMC. Check out the newly released items including MG34, MG42, British tank spwage bin latches, hatch latches and pyrene extinguishers and much more at insidethearmour.com

As always, thanks for listening to the model philosopher

The Model Philosopher is proud to be sponsored by Scale Model Challenge, one of the very best shows in the modelling calendar. Modellers from all over the world come to Eindhoven every October, for SMC, bringing the best of fantasy and historical figures painters, aircraft modellers, armour modellers, car and truck modellers, dioramists and vignette builders and every other kind of modelling miniatures to share in the passion and joy of modelling. With a world leading contest, workshops from some of the most talented people in the hobby,

over 150 traders from all over the globe, including boutique figure and aftermarket makers, hobby publishers, and model companies like Miniart, AK, and Ammo , bring you all the stuff you need to make a full year of incredible model entries for net years show

The contest features over 3000 entries in all genres, presented to the highest standards, well lets and laid out so you can enjoy all the incredible work on show, plus an area of clubs and exhibitors. Don’t forget, SMC pioneered the seamless stress free online pre-registration, integrated into the contest judging system. Make even more time to enjoy the show by pre-registering your models on the SMC website before October 6^th. You can still register at the show, but it will cost more and it will take time you could be spending shopping chatting and looking at amazing models

The show runs from Saturday 19^th October to Sunday 20^th October and you can find out everything you need to know to plan your SMC experience at Scalemodelchallenge.com. and find out the latest information as it happens on the Scale Model Challenge Facebook and Instagram pages.

And don’t forget, this weeks guest, Harry Arling will also be exhibiting at this years SMC

This week’s guest is Harry Arling.

Harry is better know by the name of his created miniature world Kosmotroniks. Kosmotronik straddles the world of modelling and the world of gallery art with a big A, although as we will hear, its not something Harry necessarily intends or agrees with!

INTERVIEW

Chris

Welcome Harry Arling to the Model Philosopher.

Harry

Thank you.

Chris

I’ve invited you on because we’ve talked quite a lot in the past on this show, about sort of the intersection between modelling and art. And probably some listeners are getting a bit bored of it, but tough because I like talking about it. And this week I thought it’d be really great to have an artist on who also works in models and see it from kind of the other direction rather than modelers who want to try to move their models towards art.

You’re famous for a world you’ve created. and the sculptures within them, called Kosmotroniks. Can you tell us about Kosmotroniks?

Harry

Yeah, Kosmotroniks started off with that… I wanted to build my own models in a way. I made a lot of kit models or how do you call that, scale models. And, they broke and then I made kind of Star Wars. I mixed a tank with an airplane and that went kind of a Star Wars thing. And then I started with just pieces that were lying around, like a plastic cup or something like that. And I made a UFO out of it and very colourful. that started the whole thing in a way. and yeah, that came from the inside. like to build some things and this was a great way to express what I wanted to express in a way.

Chris

Did you come at this from being a scale modeler who just wanted to do something different or have you always been interested in art?

Harry

No, I was never that interested in art. I’m very interested in miniatures. We had German TV here, three broadcasts, German and two Dutch. And Dutch was never anything good for children. So I watched a lot of German television and they had a lot of hand puppets and puppet stuff and miniature and stop motion. And my brother and me loved it. So that’s a big inspiration.

And I always wanted to make also what I saw there, to try to make that. So I just remember that with The Wizard of Oz, there was a… I don’t know if it was kind of… Was it in the movie? Those monkeys fly in… No, they have wings, but there was also a version that they fly in airplanes, in double decks. And my brother and I immediately put some wood and we tried to make those double -deckers. So, it’s always coming from there. And from a lot of scale modelling, I made everything from Monogram and Tamiya was there already and I never did much of Revell, but monogram. And I stopped with scale modelling because I thought that people were much better than me, like Shepard Payne from Monogram. I saw those at the catalogue, those behind pictures. Well, they blew me away. And I wanted to do that also and paint those figures and then that kind of stuff. And then Francois Verlinden in the Tamiya catalogue, that also blew me away. And then I saw, I’m not that good.

I think I wanted to be doing it so maybe I thought “okay let’s make my own stuff and see what happens”.

Chris

So how did you move from making scale models to making original sculptures, shall we say?

Harry

Yeah, very fluently. I never looked at art in a way. I never went to a museum or something like that. when I started I was really a musician.

I don’t know. I really started when things were breaking up with airplanes and tanks, when they were broke. started and Star Wars came, you know, well, it was already there. But I loved that and I wanted to make those planes also. it’s yeah, it was a natural progress in a way to start that way with the models that I made, that were broke and then start from there and make your own science fiction aircrafts and that kind of stuff. But it wasn’t that colourful. What happened was, it’s very corny, but I was like 26 years old, I think, I fell in love and I wanted to make her something, something what I was making. But this one was very colourful and with also with lights in it already with a battery and I never done that before. Before was it always like a spacecraft thing or that but this one was very colourful and that started it that was in a way the first like Kosmotronik you can say. So it never went anywhere, the romance I mean, but it was a good start of Kosmotroniks.

Chris

How would you describe Kosmotroniks?

Harry

I see it sometimes like Jules Verne kind of vehicles and but then painted very colourful. It’s not steampunk or related, I think. I mean many people say it, and I don’t mind, but

Yeah, it’s in a niche of its own, I think. But it’s colourful and very detailed and it’s getting more and more detailed, I think, and better and better. I’m still getting better and better at this. Yeah, it’s very colourful, Jules Verne -like vehicles, something like that. Romantic in a way.

Chris

There’s kind of a, I wouldn’t say a narrative, but there is a story to the world, isn’t there? That there are these vehicles and machines that are friends with the people that pilot them.

Harry

Yeah, the Kosmotroniks in a way in my world, guys who are on there on the machines, they build that machine and with so much love and passion that the machine can talk and feel and that also triggered to make an animation to think about a movie of it and I’m working on

on a five -minute animation of a Kosmotronik with voices, with sound. Because when the book that I made came out, this was the pictures of the Kosmotronik, but also with those little stories of that Kosmotronik. And so, we picked one and now we are trying to make a five -minute story of it. And yeah, It’s always a money thing. The company that I do [it] with is Happy Ship. It has to be done in between jobs in a way, because there’s no money for it. So, I can’t say a deadline when it will be finished. But we are further than we ever were. So, we have now really voices and sound. That’s one of my big wishes, to go like in a movie or a series because I always watch TV, I always watch movies and that’s where I come from, so it would be a logical step to make a movie out of it.

Chris

Do think the children’s animation is maybe where the tone comes from? Because it’s quite an innocent world, isn’t it? They’re not war machines or what have you. There’s no conflict.

Harry

No, no, it’s, it has to be dialogues and not that heavy, but the really good dialogues like, like a Reservoir Dogs movie or, you know, like It really has to have that sharp dialogues. And, and, so it’s not, that it’s not only depending on, “wow, what a machine and, and you can have action with them. No, no, no. I would like to have a halfway, it’s really like mind -blowing how it looks, but also the dialogues and that kind of stuff. That’s very important for me also. And the story that we make is very, it’s very hard to sell also because I want to start off as a documentary. And that’s already a strange thing to do in animation, to start off as a documentary. And then it goes into an adventure. But yeah, we’ll see how that turns out. But it’s great to work on that kind of stuff. It’s all good.

Chris

is world-building a big part of it for you?

Harry

Yeah, it’s just as important as how I paint the stuff or how detailed I make it. It’s all connected.

Chris

Going back to the colour, they are very bright. How do you sort of arrive at that colourful aesthetic and how do you work that?

Harry

Well, as you know, I use Humbrol paint and Revell, what do call it? Enamel paint. that’s also the paint that I always worked with as a kid for scale models. But then the flat colours, not the glossy ones. And yeah, and that were the only colours around, now it’s enormous what kind of paint you now have. That was never there when I started. But that’s all on water base and that’s no good for me. I need those, I like the glossy tone and it’s especially between the bronze that I use, the copper texture and those very glossy colours. That is what’s making a Kosmotronik also in a way. So yeah, and I like colours, I think.

And it’s also like trying another colour scheme or something like that. it’s all, of course, happened in 30 years. It’s not that I boomed, went right away like this. well, yeah, I always painted them very colourful from the start in a way. It’s just, I don’t know. I like it. I like that kind of, the feel of it, that it’s very glossy and it looks like it’s from metal or something, you know, but it isn’t. People often say: “Is this metal”. “No, no, no, this is plastic.” “No, it’s metal.” “No, it’s plastic”. “But it’s got to be metal.” “But no, but it’s plastic.” So, but it’s typical that, yeah.

Chris

Well, to be fair, it’s whatever you can find, isn’t it? Because you use a lot of recycled materials.

Harry

Yeah, the walkers that I’m now making, the body of it is from a cut -off bottle. And then I put tubes as legs there. I don’t know where they were from. And then the smaller parts are from scale models or clockworks, or small things that I can find. But the the main parts are always like from a mixer or you call it, it’s always a plastic waste thing. When I get model kits, we have a model shop here, Krikke (https://modelbouwkrikke.nl/), and they sometimes give me models because they are not complete or something like that.

So, maybe when it’s a plane, I never use the wings or the body because that’s too obvious. So, the main body always has to be something like a kitchen appliance, old thing or whatever.

Chris

So how do you find working with different materials? What do you use to kind of put them together?

Harry

I use, well, in the early years, I always glued them right away together and then tried to paint them. But that fell apart sometimes because I just glued it on and some plastics are very soft and it doesn’t melt. It sticks, but you can pull it off again and then you see the glue. But now I use a lot of super glue, and then everything I do with pins. So I make a hole and then I pin it also onto the body and so it’s very sturdy. And I use, how do you call it, epoxy glue, the two that you have to mix. I use it sometimes. But nowadays I make part of everything and then I can paint it really well and then I can stick it together and look at it. Then because I have pins in it, and I go “I have to do a colour there” and then can I take it apart again. In the early days, I never did that so my earlier Kosmotroniks are very badly painted or not very detailed, and yeah now I can paint things that when it’s fixed, when it’s together, you don’t see it anymore, but it’s there.

And I’m still inventing myself by looking at other model makers and that kind of stuff. So I learned a lot of model makers in a way. I always check them out and see what they are doing. And sometimes it’s not directly related to what I do, but in a way it does. So it’s very interesting.

Chris

Do you sketch them out before you start, or do you kind of find your way as you go by adding things and taking them off?

Harry

No, find my way as I go. Yeah, I never make a drawing. always… I see a piece of plastic and I think, that’s a funny shape. And sometimes the shape is so good that it takes me weeks before I can start on it because there’s so many possibilities to make something out of it. So I really have to think it through. But that’s the nice thing about it. The whole building process is like always an adventure. I I made hundreds of my Kosmotroniks, but every time it’s starting new. It’s a new adventure that you start. I do not really know where I’m going in a way until it’s finished. I mean, of course, if it gets legs, it has legs, but what will I do for feet or how will it move or what will be the mechanism?

And that’s great to explore again.

Chris

Now we were talking before we started recording about showing your work and I’ve been following you for a long time on social media, but also I saw your work at World Model Expo. They had an area in the competition or the display there with a number of your pieces. But you also show them in galleries when you can, that right?

Harry

Yeah.  Most times, I mean, most times in galleries and it became art in a way. So, I never started it, “let’s make art”. I just build what I like to build. As I told you, I’m a musician. And in those days, I played a lot. And what I made, and it wasn’t called the Kosmotronik yet. But when I made a piece then, I always gave it away or else I would break it. I will put it out because I wanted to make another one. So I gave them away and I gave it to a guitar player here in Groningen and a gallery owner came by at his place and he said, “it’s nice thing. But where is it from? from who?” and he goes, “Harry Arling” and that started it. He called me and he said, “do you got more?” I said “no”, and he said, “well, I want to do an exhibition.” And I called my brother, and he said, “okay, well, now they will have to get a name. You have to name them.” And he made a list with some suggestions and Kosmotroniks was there. And I thought, “okay, that’s a good name”. So that started it, the whole art thing in a way. But it was never supposed to like, “I’m going to make art”.

It just went that way.

Chris

It was just a desire to make things and it kind of led you there.

Harry

Yeah, we were always watching a lot of TV. A lot. But no, yeah, no, well, I mean, you know, but then after when we didn’t watch TV, we were always busy making stuff. that went from building your bicycle into something else or, you know, something bigger or what I did a lot was radio-controlled cars. I did that also a lot and you could paint the bodies and that kind of stuff the way you wanted it. So, after the TV thing we were always busy with things and building.

Chris

Now you said you’ve had some success exhibiting in the Netherlands, but not so much outside. Why do you think galleries are resistant to them?

Harry

I think… It’s very difficult to show them pictures, but because that’s what you sent and you write something also like what it is and how it’s a little bit like that info. And I don’t think that gets the message across. What works the best for me is when I talk about it.

one -on -one with people and show them. Because it’s so different. As I said, it’s like the missing link between scale modelling and art in a way or something. That makes people very reluctant to give it a place. I once had a gallery, they said, “yeah, we really want it here, it’s great. We want to have also something on the wall and we have to match that. So we didn’t have find one yet who will match”. I think “what a crap”, just, you know, “just put it in there and it will be great”. So yeah, it’s, I think it’s what I said. It’s pretty, pretty unique work. And that can be a positive thing, but yeah, as I say, it’s also like a…negative thing to get the message across. mean I know it will go there, mean I know, but yeah, but as I said in the beginning, it’s frustrating.

Chris

In a way, it’s kind of both and neither, isn’t it? It’s scale modelling and it’s art, but for art people sometimes it’s not art. And for scale modelling people sometimes it’s not scale modelling. It’s that uncanny sort of place in between, isn’t it?

Harry

Yeah, that was in our music also. My brother says that’s our faith, you know, because we like rock and pop and, but we also do jazz. And so the jazz people find us to rock and the rock people find us to jazz.

Chris

Well, usually the excuse is “you’re ahead of your time”, right? It’s wait for the world to catch up

Harry

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, but I don’t mind. It’s just, mean, I know I got something special. And as I always said to people, I’m like, I’m the luckiest guy on the world. you know, I mean, as an artist also, I have to live from this. you know, it’s like running and standing still, money-wise, you know? One time a month you have money and then six months you don’t have any money.

And that’s pretty stressful. But yeah, if I’m at the workbench again and look what I’m making, then I’m dead. And also like, you know, how I’m like socially [I’ve] got a great wife and a great kid, you know? And it’s all part of what I make. If that is good, then my Kosmotroniks are getting better and better.

Chris

So I mean, people are probably going to be wanting me to ask, how do you make a living from it? Do you sell the work? Do you make stuff by commission?

Harry

Yeah, I do commission and I… Yeah, at galleries. just… I’m now at two galleries. It’s there at display for a longer time. But I still haven’t sold anything there yet. And that’s… I mean, when I do an exhibition here at home, I do sell the pieces. I always sell.

But in galleries it’s very hard. And sometimes people email me, they have seen it on website and they go, “well, can you send me some pictures and this is my budget and can you make something?” So, yeah, I mean… But at galleries itself, I hardly sell anything in a way. But at home, it’s going good.

I the Groningen Museum in 2021. Everybody wanted a Kosmotronik. Really. When it’s art, can label a price on it and just see what somebody will pay for it. I had my Kosmotronik that was… What was it called? “Lighthouse train”? And it was a big piece, but it was 16 ,000 euros. And somebody mailed me and he said, “well, we were at the Groene Geen, and what kind of piece do we have?” And I put the picture also in there and he said, “I thought it was sold.” “No, no, it’s still available”. “How much is it?”  “16 ,000 euros.” And the next mail what I got was, “well, then it’s sold.” And I was like… That’s really, I mean, I made that year, you know, and we all put it in the house. I mean, I saw the museum, Groningen Museum, they bought three pieces. The day after somebody came who bought also three pieces, now then one of 16 ,000. I mean, I had like 80 ,000 euros I made that year. I mean, it was unbelievable. and now it’s back to zero, but it can be done.

Chris

Yeah, I was gonna say, I guess you can do really well for a couple of months, so then nothing for six months.

Harry

Yeah, and I’m used to it now. I mean, in a way, sometimes, of course, you still stress. But that’s also a nice thing is that we got a lot of people around us surrounding us who are like, “hey, if you need some money, you know, just lend it from me because I’ve got money”. So no problem. You know, and when when it’s really tight, I’ll ask them, you know, and because, yeah. You have to live and you have to pay the rent and that kind of stuff. But also that you have people around you. It’s like a safety net. mean, not like, let’s, you know, don’t care. We have a safety net. That’s not the point. But it’s good to have that and it takes a lot of stress away.

Chris

It makes it possible for you to do what you do, knowing that the money will come in eventually and yeah, yeah. So do you think, why do you think galleries are resistant to modelling? What is it about modelling that you think they don’t like?

Harry

The main thing is that they think you’re building it out of a box, you you’re following an instruction, and you do what is told on the instruction and there’s no creativity or originality involved, and that’s of course is bonkers.

But the people I know from Facebook and yourself and others, they are one hell of an inspiration for me because how they paint things and how they… And okay, it’s an existing model, but how they work it and how they… Yeah, I don’t know. It’s magical for me to look at that. I mean, when I was in Tokyo for an exhibition, I was more nervous going to the Scale Model Challenge the year after. Then I was going on an exhibition in Tokyo at an art fair because there are the people walking around. They know their business. you know, they, they, those are the master modelers for me in a way. so, so I have a huge respect for them. And, and I think that’s why galleries don’t.

It will not be looked at as art because it’s from the art of a box and you follow instructions. You don’t have to use your imagination to build it or something like that because it’s on the instructions. That can also be related to my work. That they think, yeah, what this is like. It’s not from a box but…

I think that’s also an issue with that, that they go like, this is not that difficult. Bronze is much more difficult, ceramic is much more difficult. don’t know.

Chris

Do you think sometimes it’s how you talk about it as well? Because I know, I studied art, and I know one thing curators and artists love to do is talk about art. More than they like making art in a way. There always has to be an analysis of it and things like that. Do you think that’s part of the issue?

Harry (35:35.172)

Yeah. What I make is very clear and I don’t, there’s no analysis in a way like, I don’t know, it’s a world of its own, of course, but there’s no deeper message or something. I mean, it’s funny because the neighbours of me here, that’s an art gallery and because we are next to each other, they sometimes go to the wrong door. So when I have an exhibition, they open my door and you see at the fair, the door opens and they go like… And I go like, “you have to go to the next door because that’s really art”, you know, like, I’m not disrespectful for it, but like, scrabbles on paper, you know, and really, really arty farty way.

Chris

Traditional art, shall we say?

Harry

Traditional art, yeah, with a big A, you know. But that’s not my art. mean, it’s also like, that’s the same with model making. It’s a, how do you call it? It’s a skill, you know. I mean, like the painters who can really do good, like painting real stuff, like apples, know, like a composition of an apple with…

You know, it’s not only art, it’s also like a skill, a craft, yeah. So, and that is what I do is also, it’s more like, I think, a craft also. The craftmanship.

Chris

I think there’s kind of more to it as well because you’ve taken sort of models and you’ve gone beyond what they are and made them into something new, made something very different.

Harry

Yeah, I mean, because of the way I paint them also, with the wavy lines, and that’s really a signature for a Kosmotronik now. So there’s more to it because it really has its own place in a world, know, call it an art world. And it’s unique. mean, I’m on Instagram and I see a lot of people and I never saw anything the way I do it. And it’s pretty unique. The funny thing is that the rivets that I make, I cut them off of a round plastic strip. And you suggested once to me, because I said I’m fed up with this, you suggested one time, well, why don’t you buy a sheet of plastic and a punch thing, and they’re all like even and I thought, “yeah, that’s great”. But then I thought, “no, the imperfections of a Kosmotronik, that those rivets are not the same length and some are unbelievable too big, that makes a Kosmotronik a Kosmotronik”. And it is the same with 3D printing. Someone said, “Well, you’ve got to think about 3D printing”. I thought, “yeah, then I can make any shape I want”. And then I thought, “no, the Kosmotronik is the imperfection of the shape”, you know, that I have to do something with it. “It’s great, but it’s not there yet”. That is what makes a Kosmotronik a Kosmotronik”.

So, I started thinking more in that way that it’s, yeah, well, this is more than, in a way, like making a model. So, because there’s a lot of thinking going on for me about how I do it and why I do it and things, the imperfections. Flip Hendrickx, you know him, he came to my exhibition here years ago and he was looking very closely to one of my pieces and I went like, “my God, my God, now we’re gonna get it. Yeah, now we’re gonna get it”. And he steps away and he goes like, “yeah, beautiful”. And for three months I lived on that feeling. So yeah, that’s great.

Chris

It does have a very strong aesthetic of its own and like you say, if you mess with it too much, it stops being what it is. It becomes something else, doesn’t it?

Harry

Yeah, because also… I have enormous respect for people who paint figures, you know, unbelievable. But if you put a figure like that on a Kosmotronik, you tear it apart. It’s not one whole thing. And that’s also what I realized, like, the guys, how I paint them, they’re very glossy clothing, you know, but it fits on a Kosmotronik. And so you have something there, you know, it’s a whole piece, it’s a whole… You don’t want to change that in that way, because that’s the strong points of a Kosmotronik, I think.

The wavy lines also started, because I wanted to straight lines. But if you then wobble a little bit, you see it immediately. And then I thought, “maybe make wavy lines. And then it doesn’t matter”. And all the people go, “the wavy lines, are exactly the same”. No they’re not. They’re totally… Yeah, I mean the wavy lines are also all different, but it doesn’t matter because there’s so much and they are going like this. Yeah, I find that very interesting. And I thought, “wow, yeah, this is a good thing. This is a development. It’s very nice to see how that goes.

Chris

From a practical point of view, must be hard to transport them because they’re pretty big and heavy, aren’t they?

Harry

They’re not heavy, I mean it’s all plastic. So, they’re not heavy. Some are big, but what I learned now, and that was when I had the Groningen Museum come to get pieces, to get Kosmotronik for the exhibition there, they have big crates and they have cushions, very big cushions, and very fluffy filled, or stuffed, very fluffy. And we laid them on the sides in there and then cushion on top and it couldn’t move anywhere.

So my Kosmotroniks are very easy to transport because I now lay them down. I don’t set them on the base because then they wobble all the way like this. But I just lie them down on soft stuff and then it’s very easy to transport them. And of course, you can really take them apart. Disassemble them, yeah, because I made a cloud night and that’s all with stuff, but I can really strip it and put that in a box, this little stuff, and then I only have really just the basic form and that’s easy to transport. So I’m getting better and better in that kind of stuff.

Chris

Why do you think we make things? What is it about making things that is so attractive to us?

Harry

I thought about that a long time. Yeah…

Chris

It’s the hardest question I ask everyone, but I’m really interested in because we all the time we talk about why do you make this or why do you do that or, you know, what’s your favorite genre or whatever, but no one ever stops and say, well, why do we keep making these little things?

Harry (43:46.278)

Yeah, yeah, For me, it’s like… it’s kind of a recognition for myself or something like that. mean, it’s like eating your favourite meal or something like that. And sometimes I’m really dancing when something is almost finished, and it turns out that good. I’m sometimes almost like dancing, like, “yes, you’re the man”, you know, “did it again”. That kind of stuff.

Chris

Yeah.

Harry

Because I’m really, really happy. That’s, of course, a feeling. I mean, yeah, that’s what I own. That feeling in that way is only when I, when I’m building stuff. So that’s for me, it’s so enjoyable. As I said, I’m my biggest fan. I’m so proud of myself of what I’m making. And yeah, I don’t know. It just keeps on popping up in my mind and it’s all related to my youth with the TV series and movies and comics that I was looking at. And as a kid, we made all kinds of stuff also. yeah, it’s, I don’t know, for me it’s a necessity to make stuff or else I’m like… I mean, I don’t want to say it’s not worthwhile living, of course, it’s just that extra… I mean, it makes you proud. It makes me really proud. And that’s a good feeling.

Chris

Do you ever abandon any? Do you ever get to a point where you think “this one isn’t working” and just…

Harry

No, not in a building stage. Sometimes I start, but then immediately I see like “this is not going to work”, but then it’s like two stages, I build on it or something like that.

But I had some Kosmotroniks, when I stored them, I had a big plastic bag over them and so I don’t see them. then, after years, I looked at it again and thought, “no, no, this is no good. This is, this is, and I threw it away.” I but it was totally, I think people would have loved it, but I was like, “nah, nah, this is, this isn’t, I can’t exhibition this anymore. This is no good”.

When I sell stuff, they have alifetime guarantee. I get, sometimes, Kosmotroniks back from like 94 or something, and then I repair it. And then I also see the like, “my God!”, but I never have the urge to put more details on it, you know, because the naivety, Yeah, that was a big part of my work in the beginning. Now it’s more like the craftsmanship is taking over and I think the naivety is still there. But in the early days, I was really like just exploring, you don’t know what you were doing and you can still see of those models of those Kosmotroniks. that’s what I like that because the charm is still there, but it’s just poorly, in a way, made. Could be better.

Chris

Do you find yourself, even when you’re not working, looking, like out for dinner or something and you see an object and you think well that would make a great Kosmotronik?

Harry

No, when I’m alone, yes, I’m thinking about it. today I’m going to give soccer training and then I’m totally away and I’m not thinking of it. And that’s what I like a lot. I’m totally out of touch with Kosmotroniks then and just like giving training and It’s the same when I play music also, you know, it’s a great combination because it’s totally, in a way it’s different and when I play the drums I’m only thinking of playing the drums and not on building or on Kosmotroniks.

Chris

So Harry, where can people see Kosmotroniks?

Harry

Well, a lot of here in Groningen. I have an exhibition always here and two times a year I do it. And also in cities, but it’s always in the Netherlands in a way. And 2025 I have the exhibition in Norway. And I’m working on coming to England and getting an exhibition there.

So that would be great because I want to really take it out of the Netherlands and let it show to people all over the world. So if they want to really see it now, they have to come to Holland.

Chris

Well, they can see it on your website, of course, which is http://Kosmotroniks.com and Instagram, what’s your Instagram?

Harry

Yeah, Instagram is also Kosmotroniks, the same. on Facebook I have two accounts. have a Harry Arling Kosmotroniks and I have a Kosmotroniks account and the Kosmotroniks one there I show every Kosmotronik, how I make them from the beginning to end. And on Instagram also I post when I’m working on one, it’s from A to Z. You can see in pictures how it develops.

Chris

Fantastic. Thank you for joining us. I hope you follow Harry on Instagram, on Facebook, or pop on to his website. And if you do get a chance, go on to Groningen and see his exhibition. Where is your exhibition in Norway?

Harry

Thank you, Chris.

It’s in Bergen, that’s the city, it’s a Norwegian name and I’m not… It’s on the website. Yeah, it’s on the website and also when it’s time for that I’ll always post it on Instagram and Facebook.

Chris

All right, if people keep an eye on Instagram and what have you on the website, all the details are when they were there.

Harry, thank you very much. And I do hope people go along and have a look at that and maybe have a think about their own creativity and new directions they might want to pursue.

Harry

Yeah, thank you, Chris. It was a pleasure. Thanks.

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I hope you enjoyed that as much as I enjoyed talking to Harry. Personally I find his positivity and creative energy incredibly infectious. I urge you to look up Kosmotroniks as it defies explanation in many ways. For me it brings to mind the innocence of childhood, uncomplicated by history or the negativity of the world, in a time when our imaginations are unfettered by cynicism, or the restrictions we place on our selves in the “real world”, a universe of possibility and joy. It invites us to let go of all the things we have learned about realism and physics and just enjoy possibilities models and machines could have.

In that way, it invites us as modellers to free ourselves from the frameworks we erect to define what our modelling has to be. When we let go of the box, and instructions we can make something truly special, even within the framework of historical accuracy. Assembling a kit, to the instructions is fun and a fantastic hobby. But modelling can be more. Much more. 


This blog has leaned hard into the art and modelling topic, and although it will always be a theme of the show, the main topics of discussion will move on to other things for a while. If you have a topic you would like to see discussed, or if you have any feedback on the blog or pod, please do email me at info@insidethearmour.com

Talking of which, please do check out my business, 3D parts and accessories, plus modelling books and more, at insidethearmour.com

While I am begging your attention and indulgence, if you like this show, please go to your podcast app of choice and leave a review, as it helps this show in the podcast recommendation algorithms and helps others to find it.

If you can, and you would like to support the show, you can become a Patron at Patreon.com/themodelphilosopher. It really helps pay for hosting and equipment needed for this show.

Finally thanks to the Model Philosopher Patrons, and our sponsor, Scale Model Challenge, and to you dear reader for reading to the end. Take care and see you next time on the model philosopher

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LINKS

https://www.kosmotroniks.com/
https://www.facebook.com/kosmotroniks
Instagram @Kosmotroniks

Scale Model Challenge: https://Scalemodelchallenge.com

Before this Blog Entry starts, I’d like to thank our Sponsor: Scale Model Challenge

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in this interview, I’m trying something different. Instead of me interviewing a guest, I thought it might be fun to get two guests to interview each other.

In this case I asked Marijn van Gils and Barry Biediger to interview each other on the subject of storytelling.

Before we get into that, I want to thank the Model Philospher Patrons: Stuart, Scott, Plastic Scholar, ResurrectedDM, Eddie, Robert, Stephen, Christian, Carlos, Paul, Schaef, Philippe, John, and Eric. If you would to support the Model Philosopher, please go to patreon.com/themodelphilosopher. Alternatively, you can help out by giving the model philosopher a good review on your podcast app of choice, or sharing its content on social media.

Alright lets get into the conversation with Marijn and Barry:

THE DISCUSSION…

Marijn

What would your definition be, of a story in scale modelling?

Barry

Well, I’ll tell you that question is kind of a minefield for me because I don’t think the word story fits well because we’re talking about a moment in time, unless you happen to do something with animation, which is not very common with modelling. But there’s no better word in the language to use, I guess. So, I guess what I would think of it as a story in terms of modelling is, I would guess, any time where you are expressing some idea or an event that goes beyond just the simple, “here’s a tank on a base”, anything where you can express something beyond that. Like maybe we’ve shown it doing something it’s known for or an unusual event, something like that.

But I think, also, what this makes me think of is a lot of times we define organizations, I should say, especially a certain well -known organization here in the US, will have a very definite description of what a story is. And I’m talking about IPMS USA, in case that wasn’t obvious. And their description is that it has to show events happening and have a storyline, which is kind of a weird concept to me in a static model. I think the best thing I could say and express my point of view on what story is in modelling, is it shouldn’t be too strict. It can’t be really defined concretely. Is that too nebulous? I mean, that’s kind what I’m all about is nebulous.

Marijn

No, in fact, personally, I agree completely. I also feel that story and storytelling is something a bit fluid. Every model tells something, even if it is just what the real thing would look like, for example. But indeed, from the moment on, there is some kind of event included, happening now or about to happen or happened in the past that is alluded to in the model somehow. I think you can speak of a story that you put in it, in a very broad sense.

But you can narrow it down to a really narrative story where something is actually clearly happening at this moment and maybe it’s even clear what is going to come out of this as a result. You can narrow it down to that. But I also prefer to keep it very wide and include anything from, for example, a scene or a diorama that just emits a certain atmosphere, nothing concrete is happening at that moment, but you know that the atmosphere that is set comes from a certain past or from a certain condition, there is a certain emotion being transmitted through that. For me that’s also storytelling, not in the very narrow, very narrative sense, but a bit broader.

Barry

That’s very good to hear because I thought maybe you were trying to trap me here because I’m known for not having a lot of story with my dioramas. And I think another thing you’re alluding to, it seems to me, is a lot of it can also be the story that the viewer comes up with for themselves without being given too much information. I think that can be a really powerful thing.

Marijn

Yeah, I agree. But I don’t agree with that you are known for not having much of a story in your scenes. think you really have a lot of story in your scenes, more than most people. I think you’re one of the most interesting storytellers in modelling around. that’s why I was really looking forward to having this discussion tonight with you.

Barry

Well, thanks. That’s really cool to hear. Maybe it would be better if we got an argument though. Like, “no, that’s not a story”. “Yes, it is”. But I don’t know. It’s good to hear you agree with me on that.

Marijn

Yeah, I’m sorry. I’m afraid I feel like we’re quite like -minded, two like -minded people. And that may not be the most interesting discussion to have for other people around, but…

Barry

Yeah, I think it is though. I think it’s useful for people to hear, and along those lines I should mention, you have I think, we’re so like -minded that you have really pissed me off before. What I mean by that is, I had this idea for my first box vignette and I think I might have even mentioned this before, but it was a man sitting in a dark room in front of a TV with the light flickering. and I swear, within a couple months of me having that idea, I went to MFCA (It was one of the times you went to MFCA) and you had a box vignette there of that very scene. And I was like, “damn it, I wanted to do that”. But at the same time, it was incredibly inspiring because I felt like maybe I’m onto something.

Marijn

Ha ha ha ha!

Yeah, and after that you were way more productive in this kind of scenes than I have been. And now in turn I’m really inspired to go back to that kind of stuff just by seeing your models.

Barry

Well, excellent. I haven’t done one for a while, but I do have some ideas that I want to talk

Marijn

Great. Okay.

Barry

Which makes me think of something I wanted to ask you about. I absolutely love looking at your ship dioramas. They’re great, but I’ve been feeling like I’m missing something, not seeing more box dioramas or just dioramas in general from you. Have you completely given up on that?

Marijn

No, not at all, not at all. And I agree, the ship models, they’re, let’s say, much more classical as a scene, or as a diorama, or as a way of telling stories. What I’m doing with them is much more classical. But I think in ship modelling, there is more room still for that. than there is in a lot of other genres.

So, I’m liking it and I’m not feeling like I’m not doing anything that I haven’t seen before. For me it’s still fresh. But the ship models, are very time consuming to make and there are indeed limitations when it comes to, let’s say, getting to the human level of things, to the human scale of things. So these are big advantages of working in, let’s say, 1/35th scale or larger. can really get to the facial expressions of people involved and it’s much easier to put a lot of emotion in a scene and it’s easier to tell a story. So there are more options, more possibilities and I would really like to explore that further. after the current project, which will still take me quite some time, after that certainly, well, never say never, but quite certainly I will go back to some figure vignettes or box dioramas.

Several ideas are lined up but no idea what will be the first or whatever happens. Also there are still plenty of technical challenges that I would like to tackle. I did only two boxes, there’s still a lot I would like to try and explore with lighting and other special effects.

Barry

Excellent. That’s good to hear.

Marijn

Of course, I know who to call when I’m getting started on that. You can expect me, for sure. And also just in the figure modelling, I’ve never been the best sculptor. Still a lot of room for improvement there. And painting -wise, well, the hobby has moved on quite a lot the last 10, 15 years. So also a lot of new things to learn and to try and keep up with things and well, just so much inspiration there, that I would like to take part in that again too.

Barry

Excellent. I can’t tell you how happy that makes me.

Marijn

I’m glad to hear.

Well, the ship modelers may disagree with you after that. Not too many, just a couple probably, a small group of people anyway.

Barry

No, no, yeah, probably so.

Marijn

Okay and I’m also glad to hear that you’re going to do some more boxes because indeed it has been a while although I don’t know when did you do the last one? The seventh moon?

Barry

That was the last one. I think that was two years ago. So I’m due for another one. Yeah.

Marijn

Okay, that’s not too long yet. I really love that one by the way. And in a way, I think it’s more or less typical for your work. Not because of the setting, because it’s more sci -fi setting or space setting, so that’s certainly different. Some different effects. But the way you put the story without an obvious outcome to it. or also without an obvious origin to it. So indeed, it’s difficult for the viewer to understand what’s going on exactly or what happened before or what’s going to happen next. the feeling I have is that you do this very consciously, that you do this really on purpose. But maybe I’m wrong in this

Barry

I wish I had a good answer for that. I’m not sure how much of that is conscious. I think it more comes out of just how I, what makes me happy, what kind of stuff it makes me happy to create. And I think, I guess in a way it is conscious because one of my favourite things is to take a box diorama to a show and have people give me their interpretation of it. So, I guess I am intentionally leaving a lot open to the viewer because that is, I get a kick out of that. I love it. I can’t believe some of the interpretations I’ve heard of some of those things, things I never would have thought of. So I guess I never really thought about it until recently that maybe that is what I’m doing. Maybe I’m intentionally trying to be nebulous to get that reaction.

Marijn

When telling a story with a scene, do you think it’s important that whoever sees it can really understand what you’re trying to do there? What the story is that you’re telling?

Barry

I think in that sense of what we just talked about, I would say, no, it’s not important that they understand the story that you are trying to say, but it is important that they get something out of it. I don’t know if that makes any sense, but I think of people who, if you listen to songwriters, and they will say, I make a song and I put it out there and you make up what you will. They’re obviously trying to come up with something that evokes a feeling or whatever, which I try to do as well. But I don’t necessarily feel like people should see the story the same way I am seeing it as I’m building it. I think that as long as they’re getting something out of it.

Does that make sense?

Marijn

Absolutely, you know, also with movies, Mulholland Drive, David Lynch.

Barry

yeah, David Lynch. My all -time favourite movie director, by the way.

Marijn

Well, I can see that in your models too. I also really love his work. Also, well, Twin Peaks as a series was already, but the later movies, a lot of people criticize them for, “I don’t understand what’s going on”. Well, of course you don’t understand what’s going on. because you’re not really supposed to understand what’s going on. That’s not the purpose of the movie.

Barry

Yeah.

Marijn

That’s indeed quite rare in scale modelling and I think it’s very interesting. It’s a bit of a different way of telling stories. And indeed, well, it’s not for everyone. Just like with the movies, there is a reason why David Lynch’s movies are less popular than Tarantino’s or well, Tarantino’s movies are less popular than let’s say the big blockbuster superhero movies.

because the storytelling is a bit, well, demands a bit more of the viewers. And you need to use, you need to put yourself past the idea that you have to understand everything. No, you don’t have to understand everything. Just let yourself be carried away for the ride and use your own imagination also a little bit.

Barry

Absolutely. Joan, my wife, happens to be on the opposite end of this point of view. It drives her crazy if we watch a movie and they don’t end it with a definite ending and tell you what happened. Very literal about that. And I say, “well, who’s to say that they would come up with a better ending than you can in your head?” you know, what is it? It just drives her crazy. And I know a lot of people like that…

I’ve had people ask me specifically about my dioramas, what’s going on? What’s happening? I don’t understand. Like they get a little bit frustrated even. And that’s a little entertaining in itself too.

Marijn

Indeed. I can understand the question. Well, you know, it’s also with like music, lyrics. It can be fun to have the writer of it explain what’s going on in his life, what he was writing about, stuff like that, which can indeed be very different from what you took from it when you first listened to it. But it can be very interesting to have this with models too, I think. For example, one of your other boxes. I think it’s titled Thursday night.

Barry

Mmm, yeah, Thursday evening, yeah.

Marijn

The guy sitting in a hotel room. Recently I heard you explain that you were not so happy with the box because you intended him to be kind of a blues player, a blues musician. But he came out looking more like a businessman. I agree that he to me looks more like a businessman indeed. But because of that, in my own mind, I was imagining all kinds of scenes like, is this a businessman? Did he have a deal going very badly today? Or has he been involved in some shady business?

Who is expected to come through that door? Does he have a gun lying next to him? All that kind of stuff. I was starting to imagine potential silence before the storm in a crime scene kind of storylines, all that kind of stuff. it was really interesting for me to hear that this was totally not what you intended by it. But it goes to show indeed that it can be really interesting to leave it up to the viewer sometimes. I think I like that box much more than you like it, because I didn’t have any clue what your intention was and what I took out of it. Well, that worked very well, I found.

Barry

Yeah, well, that’s good to hear. I think that is the most disappointing thing about it to me is that he didn’t turn out to be the kind of character I intended. I guess the scene’s okay, the sculpt isn’t all that great, but I’m glad it was received well. I was a little taken aback that there were some people who thought it was a political statement, believe it or not. That’s probably the most unpleasant thing I’ve experienced as far as people interpreting stuff.

Marijn

Well, there are always those kind of people. Well, if you leave the interpretation up to the viewers, interesting thing can be that from their interpretations you can also learn something about the viewers.

Barry

Mm, yeah, yeah. So as far as taking how you come up with a story or present a story, and you talk about this in your book about what a model is. And I mean, to me, a model is similar to a scientific model. You include things that are important to get across an idea. Is it a fully detailed tank that gets the idea? That gives the impression of all the fittings and the exact shapes of a vehicle? Or does it just generally represent a certain tank that furthers your story in a diorama? But do you think that in general, maybe we, since we come from the plastic modelling world where there’s super detailing and whatnot, and we’re obsessed with that, do you think we become too obsessed with the idea of creating a replica instead of a model?

when we don’t necessarily need to include all that detail or realism just to get an idea across.

Marijn

Absolutely. And I’m the worst myself in that. Well, I have ventured outside of it and I would like to try and venture outside of it again. But most of the time I also really love nerding out in the tiny details that nobody will see except myself and that are often not really necessary to get the story across

Barry

There’s nothing wrong with that at all. I think if people feel like that’s the only way that it can be done is where I think it might be a problem.

Marijn

Yeah, then it’s indeed a problem because I do think that often it does have a function.

Marijn

Our medium is, well, let’s think what is specific about our medium. To me, scale modelling is a medium, just like a painting on canvas is a medium, photography is a medium, music is a medium, film is a medium, just something material to get an idea from somebody who produces it to somebody who sees or hears or… from a sender to a receiver, let’s say. So, scale modelling is one. But what sets it apart from other mediums or media? Well, first of all, it’s three dimensional, which means that it’s not always easy to blur things up, like in a two dimensional medium, for example. With painting, it’s easier to go, let’s say, more impressionistic or expressionistic or even abstract, that’s less easy often with the three -dimensional medium, but it can be done. In sculpture for example, it has been done of course. And the second thing is with scale modelling is that it is scale modelling. We work in a scale, we make small versions of something, whatever.

And I think that’s something that makes our medium quite special. Because it is small, it really invites people to come and take a closer look. You see it from a distance, you see it’s small, it’s intricate, that really invites you to come and get closer, study it, look at all the details, see what’s going on. It’s three -dimensional, so it also invites you to turn around it or turn it around to look at it from different angles. it’s often this intricacy and this wealth of details that makes a model so attractive and so intriguing for people to look at and study. And it’s often also the details that keep people looking at it for a bit longer. And in that way, well,

We have a medium that has a big disadvantage in that it is usually very time consuming to produce compared to most others, especially photography, of course. But it’s also something that can invite people to take a close look at it and look a little bit longer at it than a couple of seconds to really study it and look at this and look at that, and “did you see that little detail” and this and that and that’s something quite unique to scale modelling I feel and quite part of the beauty and attraction of our medium. So in that way to have lots of tiny detail and crisp and clean work and things like that, it does often add to the beauty of what we’re doing. And also a lot of the details are often what keep people interested in looking a little bit longer after they got the general idea of the model. They will still look around and discover new things here and there. So, in that way it can be really functional to have lots of stuff around.

Marijn

and about trying to make things as much as the real thing, as realistic as possible, whatever that term means. It can also be very functional in trying to create a little world in which people can get sucked into and make them believe that they’re part of that little world for a moment. it’s part of creating that illusion, it can be very functional and very important even to try and get all the details right and make it look correct, and in scale, and everything like that. in that way I think we often have very good reasons for going as far into all the details as we are doing.

Barry

I think that’s a really good point.

Marijn

Your question was, is it necessary? And then I say, “no, I don’t think so”. You’ve already shown that it is certainly possible to go much more minimalistic often. I’ve also tried it at least once with that “reality TV” box, the couch potato. Also consciously trying to keep everything as empty as possible.

And that was also very functional, I tried to do that, and that was to set the atmosphere, because with that kind of subject, it always will be funny, on a certain level. to have an overweight middle -aged guy in his underpants all alone in a dark room watching the television.

Somehow that’s always going to be comedic to a certain level. But I didn’t just want to make a funny scene, I also wanted it to have certain sadness about it. This atmosphere of sad… Yeah, that needed to be really in there, I felt. And if I would cram the scene full of all kinds of details of his miserable life, that would just add to the funny and take away from the atmosphere.

Barry

Yeah. Well, I think that’s interesting. Maybe it’s because I’m just a very down person, but I didn’t catch any humour out of that scene at all. I thought it was very dark. And I appreciated it for that. I thought it was a very sad scene. And the same with your other scene, I think your other box diorama, with the man in the closet is actually a very dark scene. It’s funny, yeah, but to me, the overriding feeling of that scene is sadness and darkness because it’s a woman having an affair on her husband and it’s pretty dark. But again, I appreciate that. That scene is a good example of what we were talking about with the detail though because I think that’s a perfect example of what you’re talking about. You don’t need all that detail that you have in there, but it sure does draw you in. I mean, all those coats in the closet and then all the furniture, the pieces of furniture, I don’t think I would be able to say, “I would get rid of all that” because it does end up being important. And I sure don’t feel like that’s the answer to everything: to simplify things. My thinking is, I think, people just should be more open -minded to exploring new things.

Marijn

Yeah.

Barry

And one thing I think that is left for us to do, that I don’t think I’ve seen anybody do, is actually have varying levels of detail in a very intentional way. Like, I want you to be drawn to this one detail. And so, this is what’s detailed, and the rest of it is blurred out. You mentioned it’s kind of hard to do that, but it’s a challenge. think we should set ourselves a challenge to try something like that.

Marijn

Yeah, I think you’re right. Anyway, I think we can still learn a lot from, let’s say, modern art from the late 19th century on, let’s say, from the Impressionists on. Some people are doing it in the figure painting world. There are some influences from that starting now. It has been done before, like I think, Fletcher Clement, (actually by Joe Berton, as Marijn corrected later after recording) didn’t he do a portrait of Van Gogh painted in his style? Other people have done busts painted in his style. That’s one of those things that I missed. Like more than 15 years ago I was playing with the idea of doing something with pointillism. So you know, dots in different colours all put together in the same surface area, to then create another colour when you take a slight distance from it for people who are not familiar with it. But I thought, well, the best way to do this would be on a bust, so I would have large surfaces to work with, but I never figured out what bust I would use for it. was thinking, well, George Seurat as an important pointiest could be interesting, but nobody knows what he looks like. So that doesn’t add too much to the story also then in that case. I never figured it out and now other people have been doing similar things. So that’s great. Then I don’t need to do it anymore, but I’m sure we can go further than that.

Some people are doing certain things. I think key to putting this extra step is to not just following what modern art has done 100 years ago, but also try to do something of our own in our own medium with the characteristics of our own medium, with the three dimensionality, with the small scale, somehow with the details. So, like you say, a contrast between detail and lack of detail can be really interesting to play with. But I think, key, would be somehow to invent our own personal visual language. many modellers have found their own style of painting or building or making a scene but very few I feel have really created their own visual language.

Barry

That’s a really important point.

Marijn

Well, up the artistic level in our work, that’s something we could strive for. And if we want to do different things and new things, that’s something we could think of. Somebody who is doing it, I feel, is Jean Bernard André.

I think he did create his own visual language, the way he uses the colour, the way he combines elements in his scenes, the way he sets atmospheres. It’s very personal, it’s very recognizable and not just as a style but really as the type of elements he uses in his scenes. Another one I feel is Kostas Kariotellis in a very different way, but he also created something that is not based on somebody else’s work, or somebody else’s art movements but a very personal visual language. The problem with that is of course is that it’s hard to sit down and tell yourself like okay now I’m going to invent my own personal visual language. It doesn’t happen like that, I think. No, just like it doesn’t work like “now I’m going to invent my own personal style.”

Barry

It doesn’t really work that way, no.

Marijn

10, 15 years ago, I did have the ambition to explore all of that further for myself. But all I’ve done since is go back more classical modelling with the ship models, meanwhile, which I’m really enjoying. So I’m not making any excuses for that. But well, there’s still lots of stuff to do in the future. Not for me, but for anybody, I think, in that regard. And do we have to do that? No, not at all. But if people are feeling like, we have reached the summit, there is nothing more or nothing new that can be done, I think that’s completely untrue. There’s still a lot that can be done.

Barry

Definitely.

Barry

So, what you say reminds me of a discussion that some of us had at the last MMSI last October. And it was kind of a ‘late in the hospitality suite’ kind of thing, with people having a few drinks and that. And I happen to say that we’re making a lot of advancements in miniature art. It’s advancing more and more all the time. And this other gentleman who’s a good friend of mine, really great guy, said, “no, we’re not”. And I was taken aback a bit. And he says, we don’t advance anything. We have not advanced art. We haven’t done anything that hasn’t already been done in the fine art world, the canvas painters and sculptors that are already out there. What are your thoughts on that? Do you think that we’re just copying them? And do we have room to come up with our own?

Marijn

Well, that’s a great question in fact, because I can see both points. If you look at the contemporary art world of nowadays, which I’m not a big expert in at all, but if you would say like, does scale modelling as we see it at the shows that we go to, do we see it having a place there or advancing that contemporary art world at this moment? I would also say “no, not at all”. But then the question is maybe “what is the definition of art?” and is it as narrow as the contemporary art world, professional art world of nowadays, or can we see it broader than that?

And to be honest, I don’t know, it’s a matter of opinion to a certain extent. Certainly there are plenty of people, let’s say artists, also outside of modelling in, for example, canvas painting, that would be called artists, not in the contemporary art world, but in what they do. For example, let’s say somebody like Don Troiani. He is not at the forefront of contemporary art, and there are so many painters like him. The same with photography, the same with music, for example. Most pop rock musicians, are they advancing the forefront of art? I don’t know.

Does that mean that they are not artists or what they are doing is not art? We could argue about that. I wouldn’t say so. Is it just because our medium is a visual art that we have to take part in the professional contemporary art world? I don’t think so. But by the way, also, why would we want to?

I often get the feeling that people like the idea of becoming part of that little world simply because, well, if we become part of that then society will finally recognize us and have respect for our hobby. Which, well, maybe what they are doing is something different from what we are doing.

And we deserve respect anyway and well, we’re just unlucky that we don’t get it and they do get it, but does it mean that we desperately have to cling to them and try to be part of what they are doing? Maybe we should just do our own thing and explore what we are doing in our own way and we can get inspiration from them or from other mediums from anything else around us but

Chris has said it before, like, can’t modelling just be modelling? And I do agree with that somehow, because often the discussion, whether modelling is art or not, often revolves around the argument that, well, people try to see art as a qualifier. If it is good, then it is art, and it must be good to be art. No, in the contemporary art world there is a lot of shitty art being made. In the past a lot of shitty art has been made that we don’t see anymore because time has erased it from the common memory. it’s not because it’s art that it’s better and this discussion has come up also on the podcasts in discussion between craft and art.

So, and I’m on board with both of you in that regard. I already told you that, in my mind, modelling is simply a medium, more, nothing less. There is always some level of craft involved and you can make art with it, if you like. You can make art with it, which also involves a certain level of craft when you do. But the discussion “when is it art”, “when does it begin to be art or not”, I don’t know where the line is and it’s not too important I think in that way I I’d rather talk about let’s say the artistic aspects of the hobby like storytelling like composition that kind of stuff like colour use compared to the more technical sides, the more craft sides, let’s say. But craft is also more than just technique. There is also design involved in that. and almost any kind of modelling has some artistic aspects to it and some technical aspects to it and I think it’s more valuable to think and talk in those terms because it’s less black and white, and it’s less involving that qualifier of is it art or is it not art.

Barry

No, I agree. It is to me as well. It’s a gray area, having exact definitions, it’s probably going to be difficult to do. But I think as I’ve talked to Chris a little bit about this before, but one thing an artist generally doesn’t do a lot is say, “I’m creating art”. They’re doing what they’re doing. Is it art or not?

I don’t know, but you don’t set out to do art because you want to be respected. The fact that modelling isn’t accepted by the wider art world, I kind of like that. Because I guess I’ve just grown up being somebody who thinks, well, I’d rather be on the outside of things. I don’t want to be accepted.

Marijn

And a lot of the great artists have been the same. A lot of them also don’t enjoy walking around at fancy parties and stuff like that. They just want to be in their shed and do their thing and create their art.

Barry

Yeah, I don’t know, maybe I’m wrong about this, but I don’t know if the impressionist sat around thinking, “we are going to do art”. They were sitting around talking about how they could look at things in a different way. That was where they were coming from. At least it seems that way to me. I might be wrong. It wasn’t, “let’s make art”.

And I think that it is a mistake for us to worry that much, know, like, “damn it, this should be recognized as art. This is so cool looking”. I don’t buy that.

Chris

I think it’s almost an insecurity about people that they need someone else to say it’s legitimate. So by saying it’s art, you say it’s legitimate. But there was something else in Barry’s question, which I’m not sure you answered, Marijn, which is very interesting, which was, sorry, Barry, if I’m incorrectly paraphrasing, but it seemed to me you were saying that your friend was saying that modelling doesn’t create these things. It borrows them from art, like styles, or techniques, and is there an originality problem there in techniques in modelling, that it takes them because recently I spoke to Tue Kaae on the show as well, and he said that in figure painting they’re rapidly going through the movements of painting through impressionism, expressionism, so on and it’s almost like a sort of consuming of things rather than a creation of things if you see what I mean

I think your question was, you think there’s room for modelling to create its own things rather than co -opting them from art? Is for modelling to have its own original kind of visual language?

Barry

No, and just to kind of put a period on what I was saying about that hospitality suite conversation, as soon as my friend said that, his name is Bud Bowie, by the way, he doesn’t listen to podcasts, so we’ll never hear this, but he, as soon as he said that, within microseconds, I thought, my God, he’s right. He’s absolutely right. We are not, we are just borrowing what other people have already done. And can we make somethingthat is just our thing?

Marijn

Well, I think you could say the same about most of the contemporary art that is being made. They’re also borrowing from everybody that came before them and also the improvements or the advancements that they make, they’re also minute. It is with tiny steps that and over in the course of a lot of different artists that styles evolve, and new movements start.

But really big breaks done by individuals are also extremely rare, just like they are in science, for example. So, honestly, I don’t see a problem there. It’s also not an issue you can force, I think, somehow. The only thing we can be aware of is, well, when it comes to inspiration, it can never hurt to look as wide as possible, not just look at, let’s say, modern art from 100 years ago, but also more recent stuff, but also not just modern visual art, but also movies, music, general everyday life. Anything around us in this world can be a source of inspiration. The wider you look, the more chance we have of hitting something that will look a bit new and fresh in mobile form.

Barry

Yeah, the art world goes through the same things that like you’re saying about what was that maybe 15 years ago. I don’t know if you guys remember this, but there was this a certain artist and I don’t even know who first did it. They came out with these googly eyed doll face paintings. Do you remember these? And all of sudden there were hundreds of artists that did this. It was just everywhere. And so there are trends like that. You can name all kinds of them. But I think the person who came up with that way of portraying a face or the person who first, let’s say Van Gough, sorry, I’m gonna pronounce him in the American way because I feel very pretentious pronouncing his name correctly, sorry. I know that sounds weird. But I don’t think he was sitting there thinking, well, how am I going to come up with a new thing? People don’t think that way. I mean, you don’t; like you were saying with personal style, you don’t just sit down and say, how am I going to come up with my personal style? You either break new ground or you don’t, doing what you’re doing. That’s my thought on it anyway.

Marijn

I couldn’t agree more. I think in our hobby if there is one thing that’s important is to just do what we like to do. Just focus on the core business and just do what we want to do. Just go for that, nothing else. If that takes us to, let’s say, more classical dioramas with ships, great. If it takes us to more groundbreaking box dioramas with completely new ideas, also great. If it is a tank on a plank, also great. Doesn’t really matter. But if we do what we love to do, then the result will be always the best, and there will be advancement in that over the course of time.

So, Barry, what do you think makes a good story? And in that, I would like to clarify also, when you look at storytelling, you can look at two aspects. You can look at what is being told, the content of the story in a way. I don’t mean the subject, but what is being told or you can also look at how it is being told, how it is told through the composition and everything. But I mean to ask about the what. What components of a story make it a good story, you think?

Barry

Okay, I guess the most basic way I could answer that is to say a good story is something that makes the viewer think beyond what they’re actually given, as I kind of mentioned before. I think, I mean, all of it’s storytelling, I guess, in our definition, if it’s just a cute diorama of something happening, wow that’s cute, and you move on to the next one, fine. But if you can actually get the viewer to start talking to other people about, well why did you see this? What do you think? And more stories come out of it and also more conversations kind of come out of it, but also I think if people get angry you know you’re on to a good story.

And that might sound kind of dangerous, but I think that’s legitimate because it’s another way of starting conversations. More technically, and you make really good points about the detail that I hadn’t necessarily even thought of much, but absolutely, it’s required that you draw somebody in.

You have no story if you haven’t drawn somebody in and made them interested in what you’re doing, right? So you really do have to look at things like composition and technical ability. If something does not look like it’s done well, it’s going to be hard to draw somebody in. I know that sounds harsh maybe, but I feel that’s true.

Marijn

Well, I agree, technique has a good reason for being there. Not as an end to itself, but just as a means to get the result we want to get, to create the image we want to create that we have in our head. We need a certain level of technique. And it really depends on the subject or on the story or whatever, how much technique, how much finesse, how much depth or whatever is necessary to reach that results.

But a certain level is required to get the message across and to draw people in indeed. But besides the technique when we think more of composition, how do you think, well, what are the important aspects for drawing people in, for making sure that people come and look at our model and get intrigued by it?

Barry

I think a lot of it comes down to, I’m worried I’m going to sound really boring with this, but a lot of it comes down to these age old compositional rules. And I use rules kind of loosely, but these ideas of contrast, different forms of contrast. mean, that is important to look at those technical aspects of colour contrast, value contrast, detail contrast, like we were talking about.

You have to have something visually interesting. Even if it’s technically perfect, if it’s not visually interesting, people are not going to look at it. And also just the compositional rules of balance and a lot of the stuff you talk about in your book. You guys don’t write about that stuff just to fill pages up. I mean, these are important things. And they’re important for a reason. That is how you draw somebody in to look at something. Another thing that to me is important is that it will draw people in more, if you make something that is not often seen. If you have, I mean, no offense to people who make German tanks, but if you have another Tiger tank, you’re probably a little bit lower on the scale of drawing a lot of people in, because they’ve seen it a thousand times. If you have a 1930s French vehicle painted in bizarre colours, you’re gonna draw people’s attention. I know that might sound a little dumb, but I think that is something that we probably could look at a little more. Unusual subjects.

Marijn

I was indeed thinking more about these technical aspects of composition too, because, well, I don’t know if you also got the same opinion sometimes told to you that composition is something that either you have it or you don’t.

Many people see it a little bit as a black art and it’s all about feel, and there are no rules to it at all, so you just do whatever. And if you have a good feel for it, then it will end up being a good composition. But myself, I don’t believe that’s true at all. Otherwise, a lot of art schools could close right now, because they teach more than only technique. And I do think there is a certain technique or theory, at least theory behind composition and certain technique about it. And indeed, like you say, kind of rules. And of course, all rules can be bent or broken, like the cliché says, but first you have to learn how to use them properly.

Barry

Yeah, and you have to have a reason to break the rules too. You have to intentionally break them, in my opinion, for a specific purpose.

Marijn

Absolutely. Otherwise, if there is no purpose to it, usually it will end up just not looking good at all or not getting anything across.

Barry

Yeah, I mean, like just a simple idea. I can’t believe how many people, and I feel like I don’t want to make this sound like “you have to do this, or you’ve just made a crappy model”, I don’t mean it that way, but I can’t believe how many people will completely disregard the so -called rule of never putting something parallel to the edge of your base. And it’s one of the most obvious things that will, to me, it just jumps out at you, that it could have been improved so much by just angling something. Because you’ve taken all the feeling of candidness or the idea that you are an observer outside of the scene looking at this. It just completely ruins the idea. And I don’t understand why people don’t see that right off. Do you see that issue a lot?

Just like, what is it about that rule that people don’t buy?

Marijn

I see it absolutely. I don’t know, I’m not sure what it is, why people are not doing it, but maybe we as humans have a tendency to go for symmetry somehow.

So in a way, when we start drawing a plan, for example, of a house, we would make everything perpendicular to the sides of the page. And feels like many people have the same tendency when designing a diorama layout to start putting things perpendicular to the edge. But indeed, you’re right. I think the rule itself never put anything parallel to the sides of the base goes back basically to two bigger rules: One is try to make everything look natural, and that means try and symmetry because symmetry doesn’t look natural. You don’t have the feeling that this is a slice of earth randomly taking out that you’re looking at, or that the world will extend beyond the borders of the base. But it comes down to, it needs to look natural to get this illusion of a little world, otherwise you won’t get sucked into it as a viewer.

And second thing is: you want it to look dynamic, just to make it visually pleasing also, a scene needs to look dynamic. And that doesn’t mean it should have sweeping lines in it from here to there and all kinds of dramatic stuff going on. Just something a little bit tilted instead of straight or a little bit inclined instead of parallel to the edge of the bass. That’s enough already to add a little bit of dynamics to the composition. While if it’s completely parallel, it’s not dynamic at all.

So, there are very good reasons for that seemingly random rule of never put anything parallel. But indeed, somehow many people don’t get this. But if you tell them, they will quickly learn. So it’s also a matter of learning.

So this is also what I mean in that there is certain technique. There is theory behind it, like with every technique there is theory. You cannot paint without knowing something about the paints you’re using on a technical level and colours you’re using on a technical level, or on a theoretical level, it’s the same as composition. You also need to have a theoretical basis about it.

What we just talked about is one aspect indeed. “Don’t do this because it will look unnatural, and it will look not dynamic”. So, if you explain this to people, they learn and they got some theoretical base on this level and they learn how to improve. So in that way, I do think that you can learn composition.

Barry

I think a lot of people do learn. A lot of people just haven’t, it hasn’t been presented to them or they didn’t quite get what you were saying. But I’ve seen people very strongly resist it, basically. Like, “you can’t tell me what’s right and what’s wrong”. And to those people, I say “that’s absolutely true”. And “by all means, break these rules and show me what can be done by breaking these rules because I really want to see it”. And I don’t mean that as like “you can’t do anything new”, but you’ve got to have a, like we said, you have to have a reason for doing this stuff. You’ve got to be able to justify it in some way.

Marijn

Barry, I think you have been breaking this rule in some of your boxes.

Barry

I have a couple times. I have.

Marijn

You have one of a man in a hallway, looks like an apartment hallway, or maybe more a hotel hallway, where basically it’s not completely symmetric because maybe there is a door at one side and the hallway continues at the end on another side, but it’s very subtle, but for the rest, it’s very parallel, it’s very symmetric.

Barry

Yep, mm -hmm, that’s what I was thinking of.

Marijn

but it’s also very functional because this sets a certain atmosphere of this very, yeah let’s say slightly creepy, very empty, very lonely place and in the composition, you counterbalance this by placing the man a bit off to one side so you don’t place him in the middle so the scene is not completely symmetric around him but you put him a little bit to one side and if I’m correct he is holding a kind of suitcase or briefcase in the hand that is where there is most space so the briefcase is almost in the middle of the scene it’s also of a brighter colour I believe

Marijn

So you see here you break the rule simply to get a certain result, and you also counterbalance the disadvantages that it can have. For example, you could say like “well it’s symmetric so it will lack dynamism”. because you place the figure off centre, you solve that problem that comes along with it for example. I think this is a perfect example of breaking some of the rules of composition, in a very functional, and a very deliberate way.

Barry

I hope that worked well because I did do it deliberately, I did another scene where it’s looking down kind of an alleyway that’s like that. And the main reason I did that was to make the perspective work. And it made me nervous because I thought “This is a rule I’m breaking. This is too square”. And I don’t know if it, I’m never sure if this succeeds or not, but that was the purpose of that.

Because I felt like if I had actually done it by the rules, quote, I wouldn’t have been able to get the perspective right. So whether or not it worked, I don’t know.

Marijn

Well, I haven’t seen it in real life, so that’s of course the real test. But to me on photographs, it really works with that one too, with that alleyway there are a man and a woman each on one side of the beginning of the alley, if I’m correct. And they have this very awkward interaction between them. Like, they’re interacting but not really. There is something going on with the relationship between them and what it is we can guess for. But because the alley is so symmetric between them, it really creates this huge visual gap between them. This empty dark space, which for me really creates or really emphasizes that atmosphere of awkwardness in their interaction.

Barry

Well, I’m glad that worked. I’m kind of shocked to hear when this stuff works because I don’t expect it to work. it doesn’t necessarily… When I finish these things, I’m like, I don’t think that’s coming across well. I’m sure you’ve experienced this before. You can’t judge how well you’ve done something when you’ve finished a project. At least I can’t. I mean, do you find that? It’s like, I don’t know. Maybe it’s okay. Maybe it’s not.

Marijn

Yeah, that’s a difficult one indeed. To a certain extent, we have to judge whether what we’re doing is working or not. But during the project, because then we can still adjust things. of course, we just talked about how there is technique to composition. That there are rules that you can follow. But of course, doing these things is never something quantifiable or something scientific like you do this and that, and that, exactly that way, and then it will always end up good. No, you have to put everything in perspective with regard to all the other elements in your scene. You have to combine everything.

There are a lot of different aspects to why something is placed in the right way, or not the right way, or if something is the right colour or not. And we can’t really quantify when it is right or when it’s not. We only have one tool that we can use and that’s our eyes. Our eyes are basically the measuring tool that we have, whether something looks good or it doesn’t look good. And like with any visual medium, we have to train our eye, I think. Just like with music, we have to train our ears. And if we are a chef, we want to cook, we have to train our palate. So with modelling, we also have to train our eyes as the tool to judge whether something is working or not, because during the process we have to see like, “does it work, does it not work? Okay, okay, if we’re happy, we continue” and so on and so on. But still models and certainly dioramas are complex things. And yeah, of course, we get stuck in our own tunnel vision sometimes, and it’s sometimes hard to get out of that and to still see whether it is actually working or not.

But I think there is one great way to get out of that and that’s to simply show our work to other people and preferably before it’s finished.

Barry

Yes, although that can be a double-edged sword. But you’re right. I mean, it helps to have people to bounce these ideas off of. But sometimes the thing you have to be careful of, at least I feel like I have to be careful of, is people will give you feedback that makes you question what you’re doing too much. I don’t know if you’ve had that experience before

Marijn
Yeah, indeed.

Barry

I mean, I’ve completely doubted projects based on feedback I’m getting, which is decent feedback. But sometimes it’s hard to separate a personal opinion and personal artistic taste from actual good feedback that would make your project better. Do know what I mean? Have you experienced that?

Marijn

Myself I don’t have too much problem with that, but I’ve seen it with a lot of other people. The great thing about our club, besides the fact that it’s just a bunch of great guys like most clubs, but with the club that I’m a member of, the KMK, the thing is that we come together every Friday night. Myself, cannot every Friday night, but every Friday night there is a club evening. We get together and we look at each other’s work. You’re not obliged to bring anything, but whoever likes, put your model on the table. Whoever likes looking at it, looks at it. You talk together about it, start asking questions. “what are you trying to do with this?”, “What is your intention?”, “Are you thinking still of doing that?”, or “maybe you could add still this, or maybe you could tone that a bit down, or…” and you have conversations about how to improve the model. And that also goes to dioramas. People bring their dioramas in progress, mock -ups of their dioramas. One of the most fun things is actually playing together, or making a mock-up together with several guys, starting with something somebody cobbled together at home. But then indeed you sometimes see mistakes like they used, for example, a picture frame from IKEA and are trying to cram their diorama on top of that. then first thing we say is like, “Let’s take that frame away, let’s take the styrofoam away that you’re using and just put it on the tabletop”. And now we’re going to play around with the different elements and see what we come up with and what size and shape and that kind of stuff goes on basically every Friday at the club. And it goes down to the level of what details you could still add to the scene or to your tank model or aircraft or whatever. And it’s absolutely great.

It really helps to improve everybody. I do it too. I also bring my projects of course and I also get help in the composition of my stuff. It works in every direction. It’s not like one is the teacher and the rest are the students. But there is the effect that there are ten times more ideas thrown around than you can realistically actually put into use. And a lot of the ideas are even conflicting with one another. So indeed, as a modeller, when it’s about your project, you do have to think for yourself like, okay, I got all of these ideas, all of that input, what do I think is useful for me and what am I going to use?

Barry

Yeah, exactly.

Marijn

After all this time I know myself as a modeller. I know what I want. So let’s say I have a fair level of confidence, so I don’t really have a problem with sifting out like, “OK, I’m going to use that, but I’m not going to use that and that and that and that”. But I see that a lot of other people are struggling with it. And it’s a matter of confidence, And it’s a matter of experience. The more experience you get, the more confidence you get and so on. So it’s a process to go through. But indeed, it can be difficult for people. I think it’s just important to also talk about that aspect. So I also often say to people that are new to the club, like, tonight you’re going to get 50 ideas. If you don’t want to use any of those, that’s OK. If you want to use two or three of them, that’s also OK.

You’re going to get so much more and it’s not possible to use all of them so don’t worry about that.

Barry

Yeah. No, exactly. You should always be open -minded to whatever people are saying when you show it to begin, as you’re working on it. And that’s exactly what I was saying. You need to be able to filter it and be honest, honestly filter it. Don’t say, “I don’t believe that” because they’re saying something that would be more difficult or whatever.

But for me, where it starts getting to be stuff I don’t want to use and I want to filter out is where they’re changing the meaning of what I’m trying to do. this is not the story I want to do. I often get people saying, “well, wouldn’t it be better if you showed this part?” And maybe they’re right, maybe they’re not. But that is too much of a change for me. And like you said, you need the experience to know what is usable and what’s not. I think for an absolute beginner, I think you absolutely need to accept feedback, take it to heart. I think people giving that feedback need to also be a little careful not to send people the wrong way, give them too much feedback based on their level.

Marijn

No, no, indeed, indeed. Even in our club, the idea has already been thrown around that with new people to the club, it can sometimes also be better not to have everybody giving input to them, restricted a little bit and having one or two people sitting down with them more and let them give most of the inputs.

Barry

Mmm. Yeah, good idea.

Marijn

So things become less confusing because also on a technical level, one person will say like, “yeah, you can do this that way. That always works great for me”. And another person will say something completely different. And the new guy is completely confused too. “What do I do now?”

Barry

Yes, “don’t listen to these jokers. I place everything parallel to the bass” Right. So yeah

Marijn

Yeah, indeed. I think that’s mostly a matter of ego, of course, and it’s natural. We all have our egos and some people get more defensive than others. And I also get defensive when I get comments, sometimes rightly so, but often also not rightly so. Because what you say about you have to also be really open and open -minded to the input that you’re getting. That is sometimes that I catch myself that I find it sometimes more difficult to do. Maybe also because I got more confident over the years. Sometimes maybe I’m a bit overconfident in what I’m trying to do and that I’m doing the right thing.

Often, I do get defensive at first like, “yeah, okay, yeah, you have a good point, but I’m trying to do like this or like that”. And it’s only a couple of days later after thinking about that and, “yeah, indeed, he was right. I should change it in that way”.

Barry

It’s totally natural for, and I think a lot of people don’t realize this, but it’s natural to be a little bit defensive. It doesn’t mean that you’re not taking critique well. mean, people have told me things and my first reaction is, “well, no, that’s not that that’s the way I’m, you know, that’s just the way it came out” or, you know, whatever. Just my immediate reaction is to defend it, I guess is what I’m trying to say. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. Now, if I said, “You’re completely wrong. I don’t want to hear anything from you”. That’s different. But it is part of the listening process. You are going to be a little bit defensive. The key is don’t let it make you angry.

Marijn

That’s a very good point. That’s a very good point. Yeah, indeed. And I think you’re right that it’s part of the listening process and part of the process of weighing the pros and the cons of doing something with the critique that you have been given.

But on the other hand, you did have a very good point also, I think, about not following inputs or critique that would change what you’re trying to do, that is changing the meaning of what you’re trying to do.

Marijn

And I think that’s one of the big advantages of telling stories with your models.

You often hear, for example on the podcasts, when people are talking about, have you been working on? You often hear people saying like, yeah, I set that model aside because I’m not really sure which way to go. Should I do it more like this or more like that?

When you’re telling a story with your model, you have to have a clear concept of what you’re aiming for. You have to have a vision of what you’re going for. And it has also been talked about on podcasts that if you don’t want to get your model on the shelf of doom, having a clear vision for your model, whatever model it is, is often the key to success. It’s the way to not get stuck somewhere halfway.

So when you’re telling a story with your model, you’re already forced to have a vision. It doesn’t need to be 100 % clear, but you have to have a certain vision of what you’re doing from the beginning. And the good thing is, of course, that this vision helps you in making every decision along the way. And often the choice is simple. Does this thing help the story?

Okay, then I do something with it. Does it not help or even hurt the story? Then I leave it out. So it really helps with making decisions and for me that really helps in getting projects actually finished.

Barry

Definitely. I feel like the story or the message you’re trying to do, and this kind of gets back to art talk, but the message or the story you’re trying to get across is so personal that it’s sacred to me. Maybe it fails, but you still need to do it sometimes. You still need to carry through that vision, in my opinion.

Marijn

I think you’re right. I don’t know what the exact definition of art is, what is art, what is not, what we are doing is art or is not, but I do know that art always needs to be a personal expression in some way.

Well, if we want to do something that is really satisfying for ourselves and is really something from ourselves, we need to stick to that, to what we really want to do with it.

Barry

Yep, I agree.

Marijn

Barry, I think your box dioramas always have a very strong atmosphere to them. Maybe often a rather specific atmosphere, but not always. There is certainly a lot of variation to it. The recruitment of the young guards has a very different atmosphere to the punk rockers Box, that has a very different atmosphere to the Thursday evening box, and so on, but always a very strong atmosphere.

How do you create that kind of atmosphere? What aspects or elements do you pay attention to when you’re creating an atmosphere like that?

Barry

Hmm. I think, man, it comes down to actually some technical things that might sound a little bit sterile. But one of the big advantages of box diorama is that you have complete control over the lighting. And you can do so much with lighting to create an atmosphere. I mean, that’s just the purpose of a box diorama, one of the main purposes, right? Something as simple as the temperature of the light, which a lot of times you think of warm colours as being happier and cool colours being more somber, but in lighting that yellow incandescent light, and I don’t know if it’s just me from my personal background, but that always signifies something kind of melancholy. These golden hues, the golden street lamps, the golden old incandescent lamps. Colour is a huge part of it.

Lighting colour, but also the colour you paint things. And not only with the harmony, but just what the colours actually bring out, cool purples and browns and grays will do an amazing amount of bringing down the mood of something. I don’t know if that’s too simplistic, but that is kind of the only thing that I can think of that I intentionally do to make a more somber mood, because that’s kind of what I’ve gone to as more melancholy.

And I don’t even necessarily intentionally do that. I think it’s just the ideas in my head. Maybe that means I’m a really depressing kind of guy. But I had one Italian modeler say to me, your scenes are so sad. Why are you always so sad? Like, I don’t know. That’s just what I want to do. But there might be something that I’m doing that’s not, that I can’t explain that makes them that way. I don’t know.

Is there something that you get from those that make you think I’m doing something specifically?

Marijn

Well, I think it needs the colouration of the scene in general, whether it is by lighting or by painting or both, like in a box usually both, but outside of a box with other models you can also play with the colouration of everything, how light, how dark, how saturated, how desaturated, how warm colours, cold colours, all these kind of contrasts, how much contrast you put in it, or how harmonious you make everything. It all contributes to atmosphere in one way or another, think. And besides that, I think it’s also a matter of what you actually put in the scene. What activities are going on also determines a lot, of the atmosphere of what’s going on. For example, the girl under the lamppost, what she is doing just waiting there, also contributes of course to the atmosphere, but also the emotions that she is showing, her body language, her facial expression that also is very important of course to the atmosphere of the scene.

Barry

That’s true. That’s true. Yeah.

Marijn

And then of course the use of space, I think is also important. How crowded you make a scene or how open or empty you make a scene. If you’re looking for melancholy or sadness, you’re better off with not too much stuff in your scene with more open space, larger surfaces.

Marijn

If you want to have something funny or something full of action and excitement, well then… you can make it much more crowded and full of detail. And with the colours you would use higher contrasts, more saturation, things like that. So I think all these things work together to create the atmosphere. I think in the end basically everything in your scene from whatever you put in it or leave out of it to the paint work you do to the lighting you do everything can contribute to the atmosphere in a certain way and I think you do.

Barry

Well, thank you. I mean, that really does mean a lot to me. I can’t believe I didn’t think of the body language. I feel a little uncomfortable talking about my stuff so much because I feel like I’m being very pretentious. And I don’t want to do that too much. I can’t believe I didn’t think about the body language because really, that’s probably central.

Marijn

We’re on a very pretentious podcast anyway, so don’t worry about that.

Barry

Yeah right!

Chris

If you guys could just make it 10% more pretentious, that’d be great. Thanks.

Marijn

good, I was holding back so far.

Chris

Longer words, longer words, all right.

Marijn

Ha ha!

Barry

I’ll get my thesaurus out.

But I can’t believe that I didn’t think about the posing because yeah, that has been central to every box I’ve done, probably every single one I’ve done. It’s the central part. I think that is the most important part now that you bring it up.

Marijn

I think mostly, usually the body language is a secondary thing. The primary thing is to get a certain emotion in your figures, to get them to look like they are feeling a certain specific emotion.

Barry

Yeah.

Marijn

whether or not you keep it open to interpretation like you often do, Barry, or whether it has to be very recognizable to the viewer, doesn’t matter, you’re aiming for something, an emotion. And there are always two elements that are important to get that emotion in a figure, like Mike Blank has written about and plenty of other people. It’s the facial expression and the body language. And that’s not in order of importance, they’re both equally important.

So I think indeed often we’re aiming for a certain expression, a certain emotion in our figures and well, we’re posing accordingly, but not necessarily always on a very, very conscious level. It depends a bit, I think.

Barry

Yeah, it’s very true.

Well, I mean, a good example in your work of that is the guy breaking in, breaking it, throwing open the door and catching his wife having an affair. That figure is central to the entire story. If you didn’t have his body language, his facial expression down, it wouldn’t work. That’s how you’re seeing what’s happening. If he was just nonchalantly walking in the door, it would be a little bit different story, right? So yeah, that is critical.

Marijn

Yeah, indeed. Thank you. Because indeed that one I struggled with. I sculpted him twice, which I rarely do. Usually, I just fiddle around until I get things to my liking. I rarely go back to square one with anything. But with that one I did because first I imagined him walking in, slightly suspecting something but not really being sure. But he was looking like he was just casually walking in because he had a certain facial expression but that was not very clear and his body language was not clear at all, was just looking casual indeed. So it was not coming across.

So I read it’s him storming in as if he really knew already what was going on. Maybe he had seen the red sports car of the lover boy parked in front of the house already.

Maybe he had made a telephone call to his wife and had overheard something over the phone, whatever the reason is, but it’s clear that he knows what’s going on and he’s going to look through the room and question his wife.

Barry

Maybe he heard that slap that made the red mark on her butt. So, I’m trying to picture what it would be like if he had that look on his face. And I think one thing that might’ve happened is you might have people thinking that you didn’t know how to make the emotion, his, his, his emotion or whatever. And that you just, made like a parking lot, I call it a parking lot diorama. Well, this is the figure I could find and it’s a guy standing there opening the door, right? So you need to show, you need to make it intentional no matter what you did.

Marijn

Yeah, indeed. well, another aspect with that diorama, and one of the reasons why he is so important to tell the story is because I’m a little bit less happy with the bust in the foreground. So the lover boy that’s hiding in the closet, because it was my first bust on a technical level, I was happy with it, but the facial expression of a certain fear of being discovered could have been much stronger, I think. It was okay, but not as good as I would have wanted it to be. And if he would have looked more fearful, still the entire scene would have been stronger still. I’m happy with how it turned out, but… that’s one of these things, you know, everybody always has stuff at the end that they say like, “I wish this would have been a bit more like this”, or I “had that more in mind to be a bit more like that”, or “that could have been better”. That’s one with that scene for me. Absolutely, absolutely. But like I say, it was my first bust, first phase in that scale. We live and learn and hopefully improve with the next one.

Only by looking critically at our own work, we can learn.

Barry

You’re always going to do that, and you always should, question what you’ve done and not always be 100% satisfied with it. But I never got that feeling from that figure. I think he’s a very important figure, but his importance is he’s the one that first draws you into the scene. And I’ve never felt like he didn’t portray that feeling, fear of getting caught, he definitely puts that across. But I understand where you’re coming from. Yeah.

Marijn

Thank you. But I would like to turn back to something you said that was quite important, I think. The idea of using a figure that doesn’t really suit the scene, but yeah, it’s the best you could find. That’s something I see with a lot of dioramas.

Barry

Yes.

Marijn

Figure painting is often, and especially modifying figures or sculpting figures is something that scares a lot of modellers. So, you see it a lot. And sometimes it’s even made worse by not even “this is the best I could find”, but “this was the best I had in my stash”.

Barry

Yeah, yeah, true.

Marijn

Which is of course even worse because if you’re going to invest all the time in making a diorama, which is usually quite a lot of work, well, often it’s better to… The figures are often the main characters and they’re often very important because they’re the best tool we have to transmit emotion. They’re very direct in that. So they can be very important elements in a diorama.

Barry

Absolutely.

Marijn

I think if we want to tell stories with our dioramas, I think one of the most important tips I would give anybody is try to embrace figure modelling as soon as you can. Yeah, indeed, Modifications, sorry, modifications can be a good step stone to get used to working with figures and to get used to the anatomy and stuff like that. It’s a good way to start, I think, but in the end sculpting them yourself gets better results and is often easier, I find, to get good results in the end. So I agree completely. Yeah, indeed, indeed.

Barry

Yes, it’s always easier than converting.

Marijn

I find also that usually when people start sculpting for the first time, also converting, but just the sculpt, the technical sculpting process, most modellers are usually surprised that it is easier than they thought it would be. And also that it is a faster process than they thought it would be.

Barry

Yeah. It’s almost always when I mention that somebody who’s never tried sculpting before that they should try it, they’re really genuinely afraid to try it. And they’ll say, “I can’t do that”. “Well, how many times have you tried?”, “I’ve never tried it”. “Well, how could you possibly know? It doesn’t take much to just try”. Definitely try it. I think most people can put together an armature and make a figure that looks reasonably decent. Good enough to where they can pose it in a way that serves their diorama.

Marijn

I agree and I’ve seen it happen plenty of times in our club too. When people start doing it usually it goes much better than they expected. But yeah, too often people are afraid of it and they get the feeling that “sculpting, that’s something for artists “I’m not an artist. That’s something you have to have a certain talent for that you’re born with otherwise you cannot do it”. But like with anything I don’t think that’s true at all.

Sculpting is just a series of techniques that you have to learn and practice and spend some time on and anybody can learn it to a certain level and you don’t have to reach absolute top level to do something worthwhile with it and to use it to get the story across in a diorama.

Barry

No, absolutely. I think that’s a really important point. I don’t think people should feel like they need to be sculpting like Michael Kontraros to make it worth their while to sculpt the figure.

Marijn

Absolutely.

Barry

So why do you think miniatures and especially dioramas I would say seem to fascinate people? Given this common fascination with miniatures does it give us a unique opportunity to draw people in to deliver a message or a story?

Marijn

I think the first part I have already answered in a certain way.

I think it comes down to the fact that we have this three -dimensional image that is small and intricate, that invites the viewer not to just look at it, but to come closer, get absorbed in the little worlds that we create, and take a little bit time to study, rather than just glance at it and pass on, like all the photographs we see on Facebook or online, wherever.

in this day and age of all kinds of media, moving images, sounds, flashing by hundreds, thousands every day. I think our medium is quite unique that it can pull people in, invite them to really get closer, get sucked into it, and take a little bit more time to look at it and explore it. And I think that’s a beautiful thing.

Certainly it worked for me when I was a kid. For example, with my parents, we would go to a restaurant and there would be a more or less decorative ship bottle on the windowsill. As a kid, I would always run towards that and look, look at this, look at that. And I think it doesn’t work only on kids, but equally on adults.

I think Ivan Cocker has made also a great talk about that here on the podcast. (https://modelphilosopher.com/modelling-history-with-ivan-cocker/) And he was talking about how you can use it also to educate people in the context of a museum, for example. But you can equally transmit other ideas or other kinds of stories to people with it.

But I feel models are best viewed in the flesh for this. In photograph, I feel you kind of get the same effect as with photographs in that you glance at them for half a second and then move to the next photograph.

Barry

Well, there’s no actual miniaturization when you’re looking at a photograph. You’re looking at, I the scale means nothing in a photograph.

Marijn

No, that’s also a problem. Absolutely, that’s also a problem with photographs. The only advantage you have with scale models when photographed is that you can take multiple photographs from them from different angles, zoomed in, zoomed out. So you have more photographs to glance at for half a second before you move on to the next photograph. But for scale models to really work, I think they’re best viewed in the flesh then they really speak and really come to their own.

Barry

Another thing that people are always fascinated by, I can’t believe how many people are fascinated by maps. I swear, I don’t know that I’ve met anybody that isn’t fascinated by maps. There’s something about miniaturizing and simplifying the world that just fascinates people. And miniatures, not to the same extent, but most people, if you show them a miniature,

They’re fascinated by the fact that you’ve just shrunk down a person to that scale. I don’t understand the psychology of that. It’d be interesting to see if somebody has actually looked into that.

Marijn

Yeah, that’s a great question. I would also like to see something about that. I also don’t know. But I also see the same effect with also very different types of models, like architectural models. If you’re walking around in an area or in a building where they’re showing the architectural model of that building, it draws people in.

Barry

Yes.

Even the super simplified ones to call back what you’re talking about before. They’re just made of foam core and that. I met somebody who their business was making architectural models of people’s houses that were already built. a lot of people love to see that. And it’s just a fascinating part of psychology. I think Chris ought to get maybe find a psychologist to come on and talk.

Marijn

But to come full circle, those architectural models, the very stylistic simplified one with foam core, everything painted in white or just left in white, they’re a perfect example of how indeed a model doesn’t need to be as exact as a shrunken down representation of the real thing in order to get the message across.

An architectural model wants to show the structures, the volumes, the shapes of a building, the essence of what that building is or is going to be. It doesn’t need all the details of the bricks or the colours or this or that to get that message across. And the details of the landscaping around the building are often included because it also draws people in. But it’s even more simplified because it’s even less essential to what the developer wants to show to potential customers, for example.

Barry

I think it goes back to what I was saying about the scientific models. I mean, a scientific model, you simplify some phenomenon down to the things that are only what you’re interested in looking at, that impact whatever process you’re looking at. And I think there is a relationship to the way we do modelling.

I think we can look at it that way. I think we can represent only those things that are important to what we want to portray about that certain thing.

Marijn

And often we do in a certain way by just choosing, for example, with the figure vignette, by simply choosing what we include in the vignette and what we don’t. Most people are not, sometimes some are, but then they can be important to show the natural environment that the figure is in.

Barry

Sure. You’re not including insects.

Barry

Right. Yeah.

Marijn

But for example, you don’t need most of the building that the figure is into, suggest by just a tiny piece of groundwork that he is inside a certain building, like for example, a palace. So already there, we’re choosing very carefully what we are including to get the message across while leaving out everything else that’s not essential to it.

But it would be interesting to also see how we can explore this further with the things that are actually in the scene and how there we can focus more. I believe Tue has been doing this actually with some of his models, also detailing things that are the focal points.

Barry

Very true.

Marijn

of his scenes, detailing them further while leaving some of the other parts really less detailed and also less refined technically as a painting level. And indeed when you look at these models in the flesh you don’t notice this because you’re looking at the focal points and only then you look cases further but by then you’re not looking for deficiencies or differences anymore.

But when he points it out to you on his models, then you see like, yeah, indeed, this is very nicely detailed, but the one on the other side that you cannot see very well, well, it’s just a very crude shape.

Barry

That shows how effective it is that he’s done that.

Marijn

Barry, I have the feeling that I get what you’re trying to do with your models, simply because we have a similar taste in all kinds of things like, for example, movies like David Lynch and stuff like that, while a lot of other people may not really get what you’re trying to do.

But when you’re thinking up your ideas or designing your box dioramas, do you have a certain audience in mind? you have the feeling like you’re just doing it for yourself and not thinking about anybody that will ever see it? Or do you have a feeling that a certain amount or group of people, you want them to get something out of what you’re doing?

Barry

Hmm. I guess, you know, that’s a really difficult one because I want to say, wow, I don’t, I’m not modelling for any audience, but you know, I finished them for shows and I take them and I’ve put them in for a medal consideration. Right. So I guess in that way, I’m modelling for an audience, but for the most part, I’m just trying to take an idea or a feeling in my head and see if I can recreate it in miniature. And I don’t know that I’ll be able to give you a satisfying answer to that, but that’s, I’m not necessarily saying, well, I want people who understand Edward Hopper’s art to get this, or I’m doing this so that modelers think it’s great.

Because in a lot of ways it’s not typical of what modelers like. So, I think in general it’s just the audience is kind of me and maybe that’s why I’m not so satisfied with the outcome. I hope that’s not too pretentious of an answer there, but that’s I think that’s the best I can come up with

Marijn

I wouldn’t be able to come up with a better answer indeed. I also feel like the best thing you can do is just do your thing. And if you would say that in a pretentious way, it would be to express yourself and your true self. But it’s basically the same as just do the thing that you want to do, what you like to do.

Barry

Yeah, trying to say something about the human condition. That’s what I should have said. So what about you though?

Marijn

Yeah, indeed, Well, which also sounds pretentious, but which is true of any good art, let’s say. It always touches down to the human condition somehow, and for good reason also. You can say that this sounds pretentious, but in fact, I don’t think it is at all because if you want anybody to get involved in your model when viewing it, you have to have something that they can relate to. And what can everybody relate to? The human condition. Because it’s just a fancy term for our lives and whatever goes on in them from beginning to end. Getting born.

Barry

That’s true.

Marijn

In a place, in a time where we have no control over, going through all kinds of good and bad shit and dying in the end. The human condition is just a fancy way of putting that in two words. But that’s something we can all relate to, all the emotions that go along with it. So if we can somehow touch upon that in our models, then we can make sure that people can get something out of it.

Barry

Yeah.

Marijn

And not only other modellers who happen to know that it is a Sherman A4, blah blah blah, on that theatre at that moment in time, but anybody. Our grandmothers, our children, our wives, they can all get something out of it and get a certain feeling of what’s going on. If we can somehow include human emotions, something about the human condition in our models.

So I always think that it’s important with storytelling to not limit our story to only the story of this vehicle or airplane or the people in or around it at that moment in time and what they were doing exactly, but also tell the story about what they were going through, what they were feeling.

What it was like, things like that, touch upon that human element of it. then people who have no idea about which event is being portrayed, they will still understand what’s going on, on a basic level. And if you want to have an audience as wide as possible, I think that’s the basic trick to it. And it’s not really a trick because I think it’s the most fun thing to do also in models, try and touch on that. And I think we often do it unconsciously in a way because we’re trying to portray that event and then that site is just a part of it and an important part of it.

Barry

Yeah, that’s very true. A good example of what you’re talking about with the human element and what people are going through, your model of the Lexington would be a spectacular ship without the figures, but those little 1 -700 scale figures make the scene because they’re the ones that tell the story and they’re most of the impact of that diorama. So yeah.

Marijn

Thank you. Thank you.

Barry

What about you though, as far as audience? Do you build for a certain audience?

Marijn

Of course I want everybody to love me, The more people like my models the better.

Barry

Hehehehehe

Marijn

But I think we have no control over that at all anyway. And if we try to control it, we will just make worse models. We will start copying other things that we think are successful or we think people would expect from us and it will just be derivative and if we have success once we will just start repeating it because, hey it works, let me do some more of the same. So again, I think it’s really important to just do whatever we really feel like doing and then the result will be the best, the story will be the strongest, the emotions will be the strongest and more people will actually get it and like it.

Barry

Well, I think that’s a really good point. And actually, that brings up the main reason why I’ve become pretty disillusioned with the whole medals and awards and everything. I feel like we put way too much emphasis on that. I’m happy to help with that and make it better if we want to do that. But I really feel like we need to de -emphasize that and maybe use them a little bit better.

Because it causes people to do that, to just like, what do people want to see? What do the judges want to see? That’s not what you should be doing, in my opinion.

Marijn

No, indeed. And in my opinion, and I think I can even say, and that’s pretentious in my experience, it even doesn’t work that way. Maybe on a lower level, maybe. But if you really want to get the big awards, you better do what you really want to do. Because that’s the way.

Barry

That’s 100% what I’ve found.

Marijn

Me too, me too. The bigger awards I’ve won have always been with projects that I really loved and I’ve switched gears several times going into other genres and it hasn’t worked against me. On the contrary, I think it helped me keep it fresh and keep the motivation going and keep the passion going and get the best results I can get for myself as a model and that translates in the competitions too. But like you say, that’s something that we should take afterwards, after the process of designing, building the model, having the pleasure from that. Afterwards we can think of putting it in a competition and getting some fun out of that, not during or before the process of making the model, I think. Indeed.

Barry

I’m happy to, you know, help with shows that do judging and it’s, I like a lot of it. A lot of it leaves me a little bit cold, but I just would like to promote it in a way that helps people use it for what it is. And like I always say, it is a data point. It is a critique in a way and take it for what it’s worth. may be worth a lot.

It may be not worth so much. It’s an opinion.

Marijn

Yeah, I think you’re right. Maybe to quickly go back, on another level, I do think a lot about the audience of the models that I built, but on a more technical level, when working on the composition. Then I do think about what will people see?

When they look at my model, what will they see first? Which focal points shall I put, which is the most important focal point? How do I attract people to that focal point? So they will see that one first, which are my secondary focal points, which are a bit less important. And people might look at next after they have seen the first one. About this kind of more technical aspects, I do think about how an audience would see the model. But that’s more on a technical composition level of course and that’s just in the function of trying to get the story across.

And then I’m not thinking about a certain group of people, then I’m just thinking about anybody who would look at it.

Barry

Yeah, because those composition principles are things that will affect pretty much everybody the same way. You don’t have to be an art expert to recognize that you have balance in your diorama. I mean, that’s just you’re talking about basic human psychology that you’re working.

Marijn

Indeed, Maybe the only difference is between people who really have knowledge about the items that you put in your model, for example, the history buffs who do know that it is the Sherman M4A4 in this theatre and all the other people who don’t know about it. Then there can be a difference between what the specialists are first attracted to, compared to the other people.

But still, if your composition is strong enough, that also doesn’t matter. That will also level out, I believe.

Barry

Yeah, I agree.

Chris

All right, we’re gonna have to wrap it up there. I want to thank you both for joining me on the Pretentious Modeller podcast.

Marijn

I’m glad we could help to up the level of pretentiousness a little bit today.

Barry

I’m glad I could be part of that.

Chris

In all seriousness though, this is exactly the kind of conversation that I started this podcast for and exactly the kind of sort of thinking about the hobby that I wanted to bring out and encourage. And I really want to thank you both for such an interesting conversation.

Barry

Excellent. Thank you, Chris.

Marijn

Thank you Chris, it was a pleasure.

——————————————–
I hope you enjoyed that. I think Barry and Marijn touched on some really great concepts and topics there from not over explaining the story and leaving it open to interpretation, to considering the tone and intensity of the light to the importance of knowing the rules of composition, especially if you want to intentionally break them. A lot for me to think about for sure.

I hope too, that you enjoyed this change to the format. I wanted to try removing myself from the conversation this time. This show is about bringing you a wide range of opinions and points of view and I thought this might be a way to make it a little different this time around. Of course, we could have had a chaired group discussion, but I always feel that format is less natural, having a moderator pose the questions and choose who answers when. I think the most interesting ideas and discussion comes from a more natural conversation. I won’t be doing this very often, but now and again I will return to this type of interview.

Let me know what you think about this, I would love to hear your feedback on the interview, the style, and the ideas Barry and Marijn present. Just drop me a line at info@insidethearmour.com.

Next time, I will be interviewing Harry Aarling, better known as ‘Kosmotroniks’ about making fine art from models, taking it into Galleries, and finding whimsy and joy in what we make.

Take care, and thank you for Reading the Model Philosopher.

This blog, is an interview with David Parker, publisher, author and scratchbuilding master, who is now a scratchprinting master, bringing heightenend levels of realism to modelling, in detail and in painting.

After talking up the art side of modelling, I thought it was time we heard from someone dedicated to fidelity to realism, and David is absolutely committed to that.

Chris

David Parker, welcome to The Model Philosopher. Thank you for joining

David Parker

Thank you very much Chris.

Chris

We’ve known each other long time anyway, but people may have heard your interview on the Sprue Cutters Union some time ago, and will know that you’re very dedicated to realism and accuracy in modelling.

David Parker

I guess you could say that, yeah.

Chris

So for those who don’t know, we live under a rock. Can you tell us what you do in modelling? People might associate you with AFV Modeller, but there’s a lot of other things as well

David Parker

I am one of the founders of AFV and Air Modeller magazine. These days I’m doing less with that and more with 3D design and print. I’ve written a few books on various things at various times. Probably best known for my book Super King, which detailed my three-and-a-half-year project to completely fix the Trumpeter King Tiger.

That’s really my direction of travel at the moment is large scale detailing and working exclusively in 16th scale.

Chris

The funny thing about the Super King was that was, maybe the last full big project you did purely scratch building without any 3D, is that fair?

David Parker

No, think the majority of the Panzer IV was scratch built.

Chris

but your transition was during that project, wasn’t it?

David

Yeah, towards the end of it, I suddenly discovered 3D print and design and that was that. I haven’t really looked back since. But I would say 95 % of that project was done traditionally. All the tricky bits were done traditionally. There was a couple of bits like the design of the engine and one of the fan units and things that somebody helped me out by designing that for me. But the rest of it was putty and plastic card and bits of brass wire and all that stuff.

Chris

I remember seeing an articles you wrote years ago, for other people before AFV modeller even, about scratch building and detailing, and essentially making kits more accurate.

David

Yeah, I used to write for Military Modelling in the late 90s, early 2000s and that was my thing there as well I think, fixing things, correcting things, not always being satisfied with how things came in the box. So yeah, it’s a long road for me of doing that sort of attention to detail. And there’s been a huge learning curve to get there, to the point where you can sort of scratch build large parts of the interior of a tank because you’ve developed that sort of skill base, to drive that project. I guess if you’re not comfortable doing that, you’re not going to push yourself to do it are you? You’re probably going to just build things as they come and paint them nicely.

Chris

I think confidence is a big part of it. I think what puts a lot of people off big scratchbuilding projects, or detailing, or what have you, is they don’t feel they have the skills and therefore: they don’t really know where to start. I think once you’ve done a lot of it, it’s just a job then, it’s just a task. And mentally you can break it down and you can take it on because you know you can do it. If you don’t know how to do something, you know you have the ability to find a way to do it.

David

Yeah, I would agree with you. think there’s a confidence that comes from knowing you can pretty well tackle anything that might be thrown at you. At the same time, the only way you get that is by stepping into the unknown a little bit from time to time, pushing yourself to extend and learn new techniques, or you discover a way of doing something out of need because there was no other way of doing it. So yeah, I think that’s certainly my experience of it anyway.

You know I remember, there have been times, when I was a lot younger, where I didn’t have all those techniques and abilities and skills, and things were far more frustrating as a result I think. But I think that’s what motivates me anyway. I’m not saying it’s a must-have set of skills, or a route that everybody wants to follow.

It’s interesting, I’m just thinking, “do I miss not doing stuff traditionally?” And I don’t think I do really.

So I think that’s probably a set of skills that I’m now going to lose, because I’m not using them. But that’s the way it is.

Chris

I think when we spoke before, we talked about sort of the craft of scratch building. it seemed to me that the craft of it didn’t really interest, it was the result that interests you.
 

David

Yeah, it’s always the result. Always. You know, it’s sure there’s something really nice about having a particular complicated piece of machinery recreated with lots of little brass nuts. and you take some photos of it, and it looks great and it’s all clean, but then ultimately, you’re going to paint it. it’s just, it doesn’t really matter. And now I can get something that has that finishing appeal of a 3D printer but is even better because all the nuts are exactly placed and all the castellated nuts that you can’t really do because they’re too small and all these sorts of things. The regularity, the repetition of parts, the regular spacing, all those things that as a scratch build you struggle to achieve, you know.

I’m notoriously, in my own mind anyway, notoriously lazy about measuring out distances. So I just, you know, I’ll kind of try and judge my eyes, stick them on and realise I’ve got it wrong, have to move them a bit. Instead of measuring them and marking points, I just, I never learn for things like that. I just always try and just guess it.

Chris

You and me both! But with 3D, with Fusion or whatever, you draw one, you give it an axis, tell it a pattern and distance and pop there it is, it’s done. The only thing you’ve got to do there is manually go along and turn every nut so they’re not all exactly the same orientation.

David Parker

Yeah, yeah, if you really want to be fiddly about it, yes, you can, and I do that because I can hear people in my head sometimes going, “it would have been nice if you’d just did all the nuts [not] facing the same way.”  But yeah, for me, it’s a whole different sort of satisfaction.

It’s the same, as it’s creative, it’s incredibly creative and can be sometimes just as challenging to get to recreate something with the accuracy I want it to have, and then there’s that excitement of waiting for it to come off the printer. It’s fantastic, it’s what gets me in the office every morning seeing what’s printed, yeah it’s brilliant.

Chris

but the goal of your scratch building, and your 3D design has always been, I think it’s fair to say, a pursuit of realism.

David

Absolutely.

Chris

Do think realism is central to scale modelling?

David

Well, I think it needs to be right up there, because it’s the difference between a photograph and a sketch otherwise, isn’t it? If you’re satisfied with a rough sketch of the car that you’ve got parked outside, then that’s all right, but it’s not an exact scale model of it. Whereas a photograph of it will give you a lot better and more accurate representation of what it is and what it looks like and what colour it is.

And the thing for me is If you’re making a model, [in] scale, my aim is to reproduce whatever it is at a particular size so that it looks like the real thing. Because otherwise it’s not a model of that. It’s just a vague thing. You know, it’s a car or it’s a tank or, it’s a Spitfire, but it’s not a Mark IX Spitfire. It’s just a Spitfire, because it’s got elliptical wings or whatever.

I think if you don’t have that focus on getting things, Accurate and real and replicated properly, then you’re on a you’re on that kind of drift off into all sorts of vague areas. [I get]  huge satisfaction in knowing that you’ve got the model as accurate as you possibly can, given those caveats of some unknown bit of information that you didn’t have at the time. because that’s part of the challenge.

Also, for me, the thing is the finishing needs to deceive you into thinking, if it’s photograph, that it’s actually a real vehicle. If you can trick somebody into [thinking], at first glance, “that’s a real tank or a real aeroplane” because of the way you’ve finished it, but also a little bit of sympathetic photography and lighting will help. Then I think that’s an issue I’ve accomplished, as far as I’m concerned anyway. When I finished my Panzer IV, I took the time to take it outside and set it up and photograph it against some hedgerows and things. And in the right bit of sunlight, to me, it looked like what I think one of those vehicles would look like, operating in Normandy in the summer of 1944.

I think that that was my aim at the beginning, to reproduce a particular vehicle with all its foibles, all its little bits of damage, all its markings and have it look as real as I could make it from inside and outside. So, yeah, that’s the challenge I set myself, with things.

I’ve just come back from the beach this afternoon, the weather defeated me by it because when I left, when I left the office, it was sunny. And then when we got there, and we got out of the car it clouded over. But I [took] my SAS Jeep down there to try and get some sand dune shots to sort of make it look a little bit North African and a little less Northumberland. And actually, even with the cloudy conditions, I’ve got some really nice shots. So, I’m quite pleased about that.

But that’s an interesting one as well. I was discussing that I couldn’t get the shots I wanted in the studio with it; I shot it on white. that didn’t look right. I shot it on the black background. It looked a bit better, but it was creating a lot of shadows and things, so I wasn’t entirely happy with that. I shot it on a neutral grey [and] that wasn’t right either. But I’ve managed to get some really nice shots outside with it so I think that’s probably the way to go.

Chris

It’s funny to say that because some of the photos of aircraft I love the most are the ones in Scale Aviation magazine that Noah Krasowitz does where he goes out at six o ‘clock in the morning and gets the early sunlight on a model to make it look like it’s out on a runway somewhere.

David

Yes, and the one of the Japanese magazines is very good at doing that. Tthey do often do that with the models and photograph them, you know, against, as you say, a sunrise or sunset or whatever. And somehow it looks so convincing and so real. Yeah, it’s a technique in itself. It’s not always easy to get that result, and obviously studio photography is a lot easier to control than shooting outside but when you pull it off it’s really good.

Chris

you get a result you just can’t get in the studio, no matter how you control it.

David

I’ve developed ways of trying to sort of create a strong sunlight effect for a desert thing, but you end up fiddling around with backgrounds and flashlights and it’s not always successful. When it works it’s great, but it doesn’t always.

Chris

So, do you think for you, modelling is about producing an accurate scaled down replica of a real physical thing?

David

That’s exactly what it’s about. There’s bits that come off that as well. It’s not often that I build a vehicle and not put figures with it. I’m not sure why I do that in a way, it’s not that I’m a huge diorama maker or diorama storyteller, because I’m not, it’s not one of my [strengths], I’ve come to realise. But I do like to populate the thing somehow.

Chris

I think somehow it makes it feel more real if you have something human scale next to

David

Yeah, it can do.

The Jeep is a good example. I hadn’t built anything for two years before I finished the Jeep, and I’d lost some so much muscle memory and just skill in that two -year period. I was quite shocked at how bad things were to start with but bit by bit it came back, and painting the figures was quite a challenge, having not done it for such a long time. And I think there’s always a challenge there with combining, what I might call, the more theatrical painting techniques of fake shadows and all that sort of thing with [the] vehicle that hasn’t got any of that, so that the two don’t sort of jar with each other. A bit like… maybe you had a say in this hypothetical model your driver’s got a painted non -metallic shiny helmet sitting in the seat but then the rest of the bits in the vehicle are painted with proper metallic colours. There’d be quite a jarring of those two approaches. I think.

Like, I was aware that you’re traveling in an open topped vehicle in a dusty environment and the people are going to get quite dusty as well, but it’s quite hard to dust. If you’re not careful, it just looks like you’re just a rubbish figure painter. There’s a little bit of a balance there to be had.

Chris

Dust has a very deadening, flattening effect and [on a] figure, that just doesn’t look good.

David

Well, I figure where you’re using darker tones to create your shadows and things that define the volume of the thing, those recesses would be probably where the dust collects. So then to put a light-coloured dust into that, it’s kind of counterintuitive, isn’t it? It’s almost going to give you a negative effect.

Chris

I think it’s harder to paint figures in a naturalistic, realistic style than it is to paint vehicles.

David

I would agree with that.

Chris
And like you say, it’s not what people expect either, which is the issue. When they look at the figure, they’ll say, “it’s not very well painted”. Whereas what you’ve done is you’ve tried to make it look real.

David

Yeah, and this was a weird one as well, because one of the things I tried to do was create a distinct sunburn effect. So, I figured these guys are driving around without any, you know, any protection from the sun. No factor 50 and no hats and this sort of thing as well. So, I went quite red with my flesh tones as a result, thinking about how the average Englishman goes, you know, … And there was a point when I thought I might have overdone that, but I was pleased when people saw it, they remarked on the fact they could see that they were sunburned. I thought, well, that’s what I was trying to achieve. So, in that respect, I think that was successful.

So, it was a bit of a gamble, because had it not worked I’d have been back to square one really with it.

Chris

The issue I find with realism quite often is, you do it very well, but I see quite a lot of people who pick and choose their realism, if you see what I mean. So particularly with aircraft modellers, I’m thinking I see people saying, “well, you can’t see panel lines at scale distance. So I’m not going to put panel lines on”  and you know, the colour has to be exactly like the real one, but then they’re quite happy to not put brake lines on landing gear, or to use a kit canopy that would be scale six inch thick or something.

And I find it quite strange, but, I suppose there is always a line. And for people who go as far as possible, the line is physics. “How thin can I make something before it will fail physically then?” But I do find that that line varies a [lot].

David

Yeah, things like canopies, I would agree, you know, but then I think there’s always that fear of destroying the only canopy piece that you’ve got in an attempt to of thin it or whatever. But yeah, there’s a lot of that selective focus on detail where it’s convenient. then, mind you, I’m not a great one for sort of, you know, detailing the underside of things that I can’t see, or nobody’s ever going to see. I don’t see the point in that.

So, it amazed me how, as an example, the Das Werk Sd.Kfz. 251 half-track and they provided all the workings of the mechanics from the engine, right the way back down the hull underneath the floor and in a normal vehicle, with the floor fitted, none of that is visible and yet almost every single person I’ve seen build the model has put all of that [in] meticulously, and then they painted it all meticulously, and then put the floor on and covered it all over. And I think “I didn’t bother with any of that”, I started putting bits of it in there I thought “why am I doing this?” It’s just a huge amount of work for something that I’ve no intention of exposing, I’m not lifting the floor out. I want a representative vehicle that’s in operation. The floor will be on, the seat will be in, you know, so I skip those stages and get on with it. And yet they’ll do all tha,t but then they’ll ignore the fact that, I don’t know, know, the wheels are all wrong or something. You know, they’ll just kind of go, “I’m happy with that. That’s what’s in the box”.

Chris

Aren’t the front wheels visibly undersized on that kit?

David

I can’t remember now. There are a few issues with them, but I mean, they’re big rubber ties. So, they’re just not great really. I think the wheel rims are, it’s more the hub and stuff that is pretty appalling in terms of representation.

Chris

But things on a vehicle that size, which are [very] visible, are an issue. And so if you’re gonna ignore something that’s visibly an issue, yet put all the effort into something that’s hidden, it’s a strange, strange thing to do.

David

It’s a strange thing, but it’s an interesting thing where, because the manufacturer has given people that option, you know, it’s all there in the box. You can build all these bits under the floor and everybody just follows it, without stopping to think.

I mean, they’ve done a cracking job with it. It’s all there and it takes quite some building. It’s not just three pieces of plastic to stick under the floor. There’s about, it’s probably a couple of hundred parts to put under there. It’s really complicated.

David

Likewise the engine bay, again it’s all there, it’s all very lovely but if I’m not opening the front hatches, I don’t bother.

Chris

I mean, I’m someone that will always build it just because it’s there and I enjoy sticking bits of plastic together and painting them, whether someone sees it or not. But I do think a lot of the times when it’s built.

There’s kind of a thing of, we’re getting a bit off the subject here, but I’m gonna go there anyway. It’s a of a sort of a performative social media modelling that they do it to take photographs of it to put on the internet.

David

Yeah that’s possibly a thing, yeah would kind of agree.

Chris

Or maybe they just enjoy it, I don’t know. I do think that’s something which kind of afflicts modelling, full stop.

I’m building something at the moment and no one knows what it is and no one will know what it is until, Scale Model Challenge when I put it on the table, just because I think it’s fun to not put stuff on the internet sometimes just to drop it fully finished.

David

Yeah, I did that with the Jeep. I didn’t tell anybody that I was trying to finish it for the KMK show and just sort of turned up with it.

Chris (

None of that “how the sausage is made stuff”, just produce the sausage cooked.

David

Yeah, and it’s quite… It’s an interesting experience, isn’t it, when you’re used to posting stuff as you’re working on it, and then suddenly: not to.

Chris

You find yourself, as you’re doing it, thinking about how you’re going to photograph it. But you’re not going to photograph it.

David

Yeah, but also you get quite a lot of satisfaction from sharing your progression as well. Because if you’re pleased, if you’ve just done something and you’re really pleased with it, there is that sort of urge just to go” look at this, I’ve just got this thing here and it’s all fitted and looks great.”

It’s not because you need somebody else to say “yes it looks great” because you either think it looks great or you don’t. You know and you’re the arbiter of what you’re doing so but it’s nice to have that.

I think it helps the project roll as well, doesn’t it? Sometimes. It’s quite insular when you’re just working on something in secret, shall we say, off media.

Chris

This is gonna sound really weird if there’s any psychologist listening, please tell me what’s going on in my head. But it’s kind of like when I was a smoker, I would do like an hour of work, two hours of work and then reward myself with a cigarette. And now it’s like, I do a couple of hours of modelling and reward myself by posting it on the internet. It’s really strange.

David

Yeah, yeah, there was a little bit of that, I would say. But do find that is it a different thing building in secret?

Chris

I’ve got used to it now. Like smoking again, it’s a habit to post it. becomes even the way you think about how you build and how you do things. When you do it a lot, like for publication and stuff like that, you build in a certain way, which makes it easier to photograph and to describe. If you see what I mean, you kind of construct it with the article in mind as you’re going and that influences how you build.

And to be free of that is fantastic. Cause I used to have a process because it’s easier to explain to people how you paint and weather and things. it’s a process that happens in a certain order, but now I don’t have to explain it. My process is all over the place. I have painted it and done some weathering and done some oils and done some pigments and then think I’m going to go back in there and spray something on there just to change that colour or something.

So, it doesn’t have to be a linear process. You can just use whatever tool you want, whenever you want, which is nice.

David

Yeah,

Chris

But anyway, the thing is with accuracy, and this is another internet thing actually, we’ve never had more information available at our fingertips than we have now. But I kind of feel like when I’m researching something, especially when you come up against it with a subject which isn’t so popular, isn’t so well known, It’s hard to find reliable information because you’re reliant on, quite often, hobbyists who post information who might not have a complete understanding. for instance, if you’re looking at you when you built your Panzer IV, you built a very specific Panzer IV, that was made at a certain factory and was knocked out on a certain day in Normandy and, you know, had a full history that you could sort of research. How do you go about researching so that you’re confident of what it is you’re researching?

David

Well, you have to… There comes a point where you have to rely on a degree of judgement. If you can’t, or guesswork, I suppose. Sometimes, because you just can’t get the information that you need.

The other day I built a 3D model of this periscope sight based on the photographs that I had, and clearly in the picture there was like one of those bands that ran around the top of the scope which had a sort of clamp screwed together sort of thing at the back to sort of clamp it in place and it was some sort of shiny metal and the rest of the scope was whatever colour, was a black and white image so it was hard to be sure. Anyway so I replicated all that, put it all in, I could see these two clasps on the sides, I put them on and then literally the next day somebody sent me some pictures of a preserved one that somebody had dug out of somewhere and was trying to sell. And suddenly I got a whole different aspect on this thing. I could see these clips I’d done weren’t quite fat enough. Also this silver band running around it wasn’t there at all. And I looked at the pictures again and they were like a tech intel report photo. And I thought, “I know, that’s that’s been broken. Somebody’s tried to clamp that together with this with this.It’s not an original part of the scope. It’s a sort of fix to sort of just to test it with.” So then I had to go back and make those changes. But that was, that’s just a little example there of you suddenly get that little nugget of information and it changes, you know, changes.

I find it really difficult, if I can’t exactly see what’s going on, to make a judgment or make a guesstimate of what might be happening. I feel very unhappy about having to do that on those occasions it happens. suppose the good thing is you can use your experience to sort of, know, certain, like the German Army tended to, the German engineers would tend to tackle things in particular ways and you get a feel for what they, how they do things. You’re going to get a feel for how things might be fixed or how they’re clamped on or what sort of clamp it might be or whatever. So that helps because you can kind of bring that knowledge into it and go on. They’re more likely to do this and they were to do something else.

And the rest of it, I mean, as you say, we’ve never been so deluged with information. You can search the internet, but it amazes me you know sometimes it works in your favour, and I get I get pictures I never imagined I’d find that show me all sorts of things. It’s usually off things like eBay where people are selling them, and they photographed it from all around and give me the dimensions you go” it’s fantastic”.

So that can work. And then there’s other times where there’s absolutely nothing. “You go, why is this?” And you do all these, put different searches in and still it throws up nothing, or completely unrelated things. And that’s just, the way it is sometimes, isn’t it?

We’ve never had more access to information. I think anybody who started modelling in the 1980s will appreciate it. They didn’t know you used to have a couple of reference books and that was it. And there was nowhere else to go apart from your local library, which you knew how much reference had been there, nothing really.

Or you’d have a Bellona print or something, with tiny drawings that were the size of the palm of your hand,  just very, very different, wasn’t it?

Chris

I think you do need a certain amount of experience though and judgment, not just of the subject, you sort of develop a bullshit meter for information as well, so that you can tell what’s good and what isn’t.

David

You’ve got to be aware that you might not have the full picture as well and be open to some of the going, well, “have you seen this photo here? Because this clearly shows this, that and the other.”

And then you go, “why didn’t you show me that before I printed 200 of them?”

Chris

At least with parametric CAD though, unlike a hand master, well I suppose you can do it with a hand master, but it’s a lot more of a pain in the ass. You can go back 100 steps and change something.

David

Yeah. Doesn’t always [work] quite as easy as that, but yes, you can. You change one thing back and then the whole thing goes to shit. You have to retrace your way back step by step to see where the problem is.

Chris

yeah, usually there’s like a cascade of other things you have to fix, ior it disappears off the screen. You think “crap!”

David

No, I think it’s to be embraced. But there are things where there’s just, there isn’t any, the reason you can’t find any information about it is because there isn’t any.

I’m working on the Puma at the moment and they give you a sort of fairly simple breach for the inside of the turret, which is fairly visible through the hatches, and it’s rubbish to be fairly blunt about it. But there’s a vague resemblance. Yeah, I’ve seen some pictures of it and that’s far more what it should look like. But I can’t find any photos of the real thing. Which then presents me with a dilemma. Do I kind of just assume it’s fairly like the five-centimeter, long-barreled mount in the Panzer III, but with some changes?

So I’m not doing it or… I don’t know.

Chris

A term that gets thrown around a lot, and I think with little actual sort of consistency in a lot of ways, because it’s just more of an insult than anything else. How do you feel about the term, ‘Rivet Counter’?

David

I absolutely detest it. It makes my blood boil, which is probably what it’s supposed to be, for people like me who are interested in getting things right. But then, you know, I’m trying to promote the term ‘detail deniers’ as a sort of counter to it. Because it’s like a blind refusal to accept that, you know, things might not be quite as detailed as they need to be.

It’s just flung about, as you say, it’s used as an insult, if anybody dares point out anything that might not be completely correct. Then you’re onto the whole, “I’m just having fun with it”. Well, that’s fair enough, but shutting down the discussion is just….

It’s a bit like in a similar way, I see there’s a huge proliferation of these colourized World War II pictures at the moment. One or two of them are really well-done, but the majority are just absolute garbage. And they just seem to be flooding Facebook at the moment. I just wonder how many people are going to basing models on these images because they don’t know.

Chris

I think the issue is a lot of people out there can’t tell the difference.

David

Yeah, that’s probably true. But I think, you know, you may not be bothered that your Puma has got the wrong type of wheels on it because you just don’t care. You just want to the Puma and that fits the bill. But if it’s being pointed out that it’s got the wrong kind of wheels on, for everybody reading the thread, then that’s a bit of knowledge you’ve got there that’s then quite powerful because

You want to do it and you want to get it right. You’ve got that knowledge that the wheels need changing. You may choose to ignore it or you may never use that information, but I think by stamping on it and going, “you’re just being a rivet counter and we’re not listening to what you’re saying” is. It’s like sticking your head in the ground. Isn’t it really? It’s like being willfully ignorant about things.

Chris

It’s kind of an aggressive ignorance

I mean, not necessarily for the person whose model it was, but like you say, for everyone else reading it, you’re denying everyone else that information or the ability to have that information.

David

Yeah, and how does it harm you to take that in?

Chris

I really never have understood why they don’t say: “That’s good. Thanks for letting me know. I’m not too bothered about it personally”. What’s wrong with that?

David

You know, it’s like every time I see a model of the 1968, Tamiya Panther, I kind of cringe a bit because it just, it’s getting back to what we started at beginning. It’s a sketch of a panther. It’s not a photograph. It’s vague. It vaguely resembles a panther, but there’s so many things wrong with it that mean it isn’t a panther.

Just something that vaguely resembles them.

And, again, that’s another thing where people, because it’s a cheap kit, that seems to overrule everything else. “I don’t care. It doesn’t look like a panther because it only cost me whatever it was.”

Chris

Used to see this when I worked at the model shop a few years ago. I can’t remember whose, I think that might’ve been Tamiya’s own Panther came out, was it a D? the most recent one they released? Had that really nice figure of the guy sort of peeking over the turret.

David

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, nice model.

Chris
Yeah. But when that came out, they re -released the 1969 one. A lot of people said, “why are they re -releasing this old kit? Or every time someone else’s more expensive version of something comes out, Tamiya re -popped their old kit.”

But it’s for those guys for whom money is the most important factor, they don’t really care that it doesn’t look like the real thing. It’s roughly the right shape and it’s cheaper. That’s all they care about.

David

It doesn’t even build nicely. It’s a horrible thing to put together. I remember struggling to put it together as a child, as a boy. I remember having this nasty shock because I’d you know, as you do, you’re working your way with your pocket money through various things from Tamiya and I’d built either 222 and the M3 half track and a couple of other things. And then suddenly this Panther and it was just, what the hell’s this? And this doesn’t join here and the tracks want to pull the wheels off under such huge tension. Just awful thing. But yeah, no, I think, think that wilful ignorance about things is just so…

Chris

It’s funny because they say rivet counters ruin the hobby, I think that ignorance is what damages the hobby. I think because it stops other people learning and it assumes that no one wants to develop.

David

Yes, and also it assumes that people who are concerned about accuracy and realism and things are not having fun because of it. That one is mutually exclusive. I’m having just as much fun, thanks, doing all my little bits of fiddly nonsense as you are, slapping something together, silvering the decals.

I think I’m having more fun actually because proportionately, you know, my model takes me seven years to finish. So I’ve had seven years of fun. You’re out three evenings.

Chris

I feel like you’re squeezing every ounce of enjoyment out of it.

David

Yeah, because there’s a huge satisfaction in life. There’s a satisfaction in the research. There’s a satisfaction in the accuracy in getting that knowledge, the knowledge that’s accrued across that process. There’s a satisfaction in having to make bits yourself, to fix problems, to problem solve, and then to bring it all together in a way that kind of is convincing at the end of it.

I find it interesting that we’re in a hobby where the very sort of pinnacle of what people can do with plastic kits is derided as, you know, in some way a bizarre thing to do with it. You know, it’s a bit like…deriding the guy who can run the 100 meters the fastest because you’re quite happy, you know, the people crawling around the track are having fun. It’s a bizarre thing.

Chris

The other thing that goes with it, which winds me up as well, is this idea a lot of people come up with that on Facebook groups, social media groups and what have you, “no criticism unless it’s asked for.” And in fact, I left a group recently because I asked, “so is criticism always a bad thing? Inherently, you know, is criticism a bad thing?” They said, “yes”.

Well, of course it isn’t. You know, these are people who probably are quite happy to shout at Gareth Southgate on the TV or, know, or say they didn’t enjoy a meal or something and asking to see the manager in a restaurant. when it comes to their models somehow, it’s like their baby and you can’t say anything about it.

David

You know, it’s like my one man, it feels like my one man crusade. Elfenbein cream on the inside of German tanks. because everywhere you go, you see them painted white, you know. Just I’ve given up mentioning it now, unless somebody asks specifically about it.

Chris

funny thing is, it’s a more attractive colour

David

But then that misinformation is self -perpetuating, isn’t it? Because people are just copying other people who got it wrong in the first place.

Chris

Well, that goes back to what I was asking earlier about the quality of the information, that modellers tend to repeat what they’ve seen other models say, rather than information they’ve researched and found in a primary source.

David

Yeah, and that’s why I  struggle against it, because I think, I could just scroll by and not say anything, but there’s sometimes when I just think, “no, that needs [addressing].

You see it so many times, and somebody asks a question and somebody gives the correct factually perfect response in the first two responses. And then there’s 50 other people chime in with all sorts of mad guesses or suppositions or just stuff they’ve just made up. you know, it’s just.

Chris

or unfunny jokes.

David

It’s just so frustrating because then who knows? How does anybody know? If you’ve read that thread and you don’t know what the answer is, you’ve got you have the answer right at the beginning, but it’s been swamped with 50 idiots who’ve just made something up because they think they know and then how does anybody else know which is the right answer?

It’s interesting, isn’t it? Because there’s so much, it’s the information age and yet that is sort of almost self -destructing itself because of people’s willingness to just speculate about things that they don’t really know, because they can.

Chris

There’s one common modelling trope that I know is one of your accuracy buttons. So I’m gonna push it right now. Scale colour.

David

Scale colour. Oh dear! I’ve had some proper arguments with people on the internet which I should learn really. yeah, scale colour is utter garbage.

Chris

I put 50p in the meter off you go. I think your Ferrari answer is probably the most succinct way.

David

Well, the Ferrari answer is the one where, you know, because for those who don’t understand the scale colour concept, basic principle is that if something is a smaller scale, all the colours, all the paint on it should be proportionally lighter the smaller it gets, otherwise it gets too dark and then the world is…

Chris

It’s a pseudo science, isn’t there “Atmospheric particles”?

David

Yeah, that’s right. Which, agreed, if you’re looking across a valley, you know, from four miles away, then things do look a bit different on the other side. But that doesn’t really apply to models, you know, because you can’t control the viewing distance for a start.

And then, if you’re lightening your colours, the first trope I argue with is nobody will ever tell you what percentage of lightening per scale is required. So, if it’s that certain, Why can’t you tell me if it’s a 16th scale model how much lighter does it need to be?

And then the other thing is what do I do with my red Ferrari to lighten that colour to make it scale? Because if you add anything, whether it’s yellow or white or anything to try and lighten the tone, you’re not going to have a red Ferrari anymore. You’re have a pink one or an orange one. And I’ve also got some great pictures of a whole row of red Ferraris, about 50 cars, and you can see the colour doesn’t change down this row at all. Within the limits of the photograph because by the end they’re getting really small, because it’s just the bonnets sticking out. And also another one with a photo of whole load of tanks and a train photographed from above and you can see them stretching off for however long down the track and again the colour doesn’t change, they’re all the same colour from front to back.

Chris

I think the other thing is at the distance they’re talking about, let’s say a Tiger tank, if you looked at it and it was so far away, it was light enough to colour it, it would be like two millimeters long, because it would have to be that far away.

David

Yeah, yeah, it’s it’s it is it is nonsense but it’s another one of those things that just perpetuates which is why you see all these sort of powder blue German tanks because people have added 50 % white to their Panzer grey. Whereas in fact it’s almost it’s you know it’s an incredibly dark grey colour to be almost appearing black in certain conditions.

And there’s plenty of really good quality period archive photos that clearly show that it’s not some sort of pale blue colour.

Yeah, it’s one of those things that just needs stamping out, think. Just get people to paint things the right colour and stop mucking around with lightening up things.

Chris

Now, full disclosure, I used to be very much accuracy or death, basically. Give me accuracy or give me death. But now I’m, I hate this phrase, an artistic modeller

David Parker

I’m resisting the urge to swear in this point.

Chris

Yeah, I know. I hate that phrase. where I took for me, it is more about creating a sort of a mood or an atmosphere than it is about being 100 % accurate. However, I do think there’s as many ways to look at modelling as there are modellers, and I got you on because I wanted to a put a totally different point of view to the other ones I’ve had on about modelling and art and so on, because the show is about to be it’s supposed to be about all ideas, not just the ones approved off by the owner.

But also I get what you’re saying because although it’s not something I do myself anymore, I really do appreciate it as an approach. And I really do. I think it’s 100 % consistent and valid and laudable. To be honest, actually, I think it’s kind of the default of modelling. For you the definition of modelling is that to create a small version of a big real thing.

David Parker

Yes, it is. It’s very nature.

Chris
So my version is a perversion of the true nature of that.

David

You could probably get some help with that.

Chris

God, the things I need help with. But for you, do you think modelling is more engineering or art?

David

Mmm.

That’s a good question. I don’t think totally one thing or the other. I think it is engineering. A large part of it is engineering. The large part of it is about precision and accuracy and exactness. But then I think that’s also blended with art because… I can build something, some piece of machinery for inside a tank and if I’m completely useless at painting it, then it really doesn’t matter how well I’ve built it because it’s the next stage that it’s that finishing, it’s the weathering, it’s the difference between a factory fresh example, like a display model, like something from a museum where everything is immaculate. And then the difference between that and something that looks like a real vehicle. Because whatever it is, I’m always amazed that as soon as you’ve washed your car, then it’s immediately dirty because there’s been a shower of rain and it’s now collected all the dust that had settled on it that you hadn’t noticed, and then you’ve got all these water marks all over it and things, and you’ve just spent three hours polishing it and there it is: dirty again.

That’s just one example, and that’s the real art I think, where you can convince the viewer that this is a genuine functioning machine, whether it’s an aeroplane, or it’s a tank, or it’s inside of a tank. And the inside of a tank is my own particular muse, I suppose, because it’s a particular, strange combination of engineering complexity and confined space, with men moving around in it, and living in it, and sweating in it, and spilling things, and maintaining bits of it, and it’s all going on there in that little box and you’ve got to try and conjure that up.

I watched a little film clip the other day of one of the Ukrainian tank units and the driver took the camera and brought it inside his compartment and looked down. He was doing something with the pedals, and you could see all around his feet in this T -62 or whatever it was. I can’t remember now, it was probably a T -72. And there were leaves and I think it was an empty drinks bottle and stuff all just, you know, that just come in with them getting in and out of the vehicle, and just obviously no time to clear all that out. And it’s that, it’s recreating that, it’s making it look believable. That’s the art. The engineering is the creation, the art is bringing it to life, it’s giving it that realism.

Chris

I just think that “living space” is a really important thing because I mean, Ukrainian crews at the moment, they tend to be inside those tanks for hours at a stretch, because if they get out, they’ll be spotted by a drone. And it was the same in World War II that crews would spend a long time in the tank because if they got out, they might attract artillery attention. And I think that’s something that quite often is missing realistically from people’s models is that sense of the, you know, stinky, horrible, sweaty holes that these places were for crews that had to sit in them for hours at a time. And I think you achieved it really well with your Panzer IV turret. I always think of the breach in that, and how you were very logical about where you put the dirt for where it would actually reach, and where it wouldn’t.

David

Yeah, because there’s also within that, yes, they’re living in this thing, it’s filthy and all the rest of it and the floor is dirty and there’s bits of, you know, all of that’s going on. But at the same time, there’s other bits of it in there that nobody gets to touch, ever, because they’re just inaccessible to the crew, you can’t get to, and also, there may be a film of dust sort of settled across bits of it, but then that’s about it. There’s nobody going into that area to do anything particularly.

One thing I did in the turret that I don’t think anybody can see really, but I know it’s there, I did a lot of, sort of greasy finger marks like when you drag it if you have oil or grease on your hand and you just you put it down, and you lift your fingers off, you get like a lot of sort of four or five parallel lines where your fingers have moved and I did a few of those effects around little bits so they’re not very visible, but they’re there, because I just thought that’s the kind of thing that happens and there’s a similar one, on one of the front hatches, there’s a bit of a palm print in there. It’s more visible there and people do comment on that, because it sort of catches the eye. People notice it as a little thing.

But yeah, I think that’s what lifts these things to that other layer because you could argue now that with this technology, all the skills that we developed for scratch building are kind of irrelevant now because as you and I have discovered, once you’ve got to grips with that software, sky’s the limit. There’s very little you can’t do now, in terms of what you want to do and what you want to design, and how straightforward that is. That’s if you wanted a model or something that isn’t released, you and I could probably just draw it up ourselves. How we produce it is a different matter.

Chris

I think having been a scratch builder though, it’s kind of like knowing how to swim before you ever get in the water, because you’re comfortable in the environment already.

David

Yeah, no, I agree. I’ve always said, the reason I was able to pick it up and I think you’ve been proof of that as well. The jump from traditional to computer generated design is far, far easier if you’ve got that background in being able to read a photograph, being able to judge proportion, being able to interpret and you know, judge by relative sizes, and all that sort of stuff, and break things down into their component parts. That skill has stood you and I both in good stead in terms of that jump into the digital world.

But what I’m saying is, there’s less to be sort of triumphant about in that now. You know, I do get huge satisfaction out of it, but I made it with my own hands as I once did. So it means that you and I can both do that, and so can anybody else who takes the time to learn and has that skill set, they can do that as well.

But what isn’t translatable is that bringing it to life, applying paint, making it look like the real thing. Does that look like polished steel, or does it look like you just brushed some metallic paint on it?

So recently there was a, somebody, well it must be 10 or 12 years ago now, probably, if not a bit longer, did a 16th scale Tiger I based on series of well -known photos of this vehicle which is covered in mud, bits of it were dry mud and other bits were wet mud and it had quite an unusual brush painted camouflage pattern. And somebody else had built this before and it popped up on Facebook, and at first glance, I thought “it’s my model” because it was the same thing, I think it was a different scale, but then when I looked closer, I could see that the mud and the mud effects on it were nowhere near what was shown in the photograph, and it just made me think well why? That vehicle was a gift because you’ve got two or three photos of it from different angles, as a modeller, you can clearly see the wet mud, the dry mud, the pattern, the interface between the two, because the radiator box at the back is drying out the corner of the hole and the rest of it’s still wet. So why wouldn’t you refer to that when you’re making that model? So just slopping, slapping mud all down the side of it, you know…

That just is another example I think of just where realism pays dividends. If you replicate that exactly as it is in the photographs, you’ve got a winner straight away. And the reason it’s a winner is because that’s what it really looks like, instead of something that doesn’t look like what it looks like. And that’s why it automatically convinces you, because it’s based on the real thing. And if you haven’t got that reference, then you go and find something, you find something else. You go, okay, I haven’t got an exact picture of that, but you know, I’ve seen vehicles where, there’s been a fuel spill on the deck and then it’s got coated in mud or dust and that’s changed the effect of that.

But there’s things you can then extrapolate and apply and give or recreate. I think that’s the secret for me, is always: don’t think you know what it looks like. Find out what it looks like. Or find something as close as you can to what you think it will look like and use that. Don’t guess, because a lot of that is what separates, you know

Chris

It’s funny actually because I’m stuck on something at the moment and the reason I’m stuck on it is because I want to another few layers of visual interest to the thing I’m working on. But I need to go and research photos of the real one, and close up photos, so I can see the sort of the patina on the armour before I carry on. Because I know if I make it up, it will end up looking bad. It won’t look good. It’s easier in a way to research the real thing and to try and replicate it, than it is to make it up

Chris

Do you think it’s possible to make good models that don’t strive to be accurate, where accuracy or realism is not the goal.

David

Yes, there are, because there are people who do incredibly evocative work. They tell a story in a way that it’s impossible not to react to. I’m thinking about Per Oav Lund’s whaling diorama from last year, which was just, is it accurate? I’ve no idea because I don’t know what whaling, you know, sloops, looked like at that time. Does it convince me that that was a whale tipping the boat over? Yes, absolutely. was an incredible model. Dynamic and just technically superb. Creating the water, recreating the skin of the whale, the look of the boat.

And just setting a scene, really just in with absolute command of everything, you know. As he always does, you know, the guy’s an absolute genius with that sort of thing. And a lesson for anybody, I think, who wants to, see the example of what model making can be.

And you know, I sometimes think, “what are you doing making dirty tanks, you idiot?” You know, “you could be doing”, and maybe one day I will, maybe I’ll go and do something that’s nothing to do with dirty military equipment. It’ll be something else entirely. And occasionally a picture comes, I see a picture of something, and I save it. But yeah, I think there are plenty of examples of that where the creativity is such that accuracy, isn’t the be-all-and-end-all.

Chris

think if it’s a single military vehicle though, even I, as I said earlier, that I’m kind of into the artistic side. If it’s a single military vehicle, it’s kind of like a prototypical image of something. then I think there isn’t really a lot of room there for artistry. It is more about accuracy.

David

So, here’s going back to the Jeep for one of them, just because it’s a convenient reference point. I know I would have made a great looking model there if I’d put a dark pin wash over every detail on it. It would have just popped and it would have looked great, But it’s operating in a desert environment so there aren’t going to be dark outlines around everything, there’s actually going to be light outlines around everything. and try as I might, every time I’ve done some vehicle in that situation, you never get the same zing out of a pin wash that isn’t dark. If you’re doing dust effects, you’re just not going to get that kind of punch that you get out of putting a dark pin wash around everything. And you know there’s times when I think maybe I should, but I can’t now.

You see how many desert Panzer I’s you see with a dark pin wash and everything. They’re everywhere, and they do look good because of that, but what’s causing that dark wash around everything?

Chris

It’s kind of one of my pet peeves actually, because I mean, I used to put a dark wash around everything, and I still have to fight the urge to do it now because it’s so ingrained to do it as a modelling thing you do.

David Parker

Yeah, and it immediately fixes your model. It looks great. It suddenly looks 50 % better. Immediately you go from something that looks flat and two -dimensional, suddenly it’s looking brilliant. I remember following Francois Verlinden’s techniques back in the 70s when he was bringing all this stuff out and the first time I tried it, I couldn’t believe how my model looked when I put a wash around it and then dry brush highlights and then it just absolutely was jumping off the bench. But is it real? No, it’s not. So, then you have to find a way of making it real within those restrictions, which is a different thing isn’t it?

Chris

Well, there’s your creativity, that’s where that comes in.

David Parker

So yeah, but I think if you’re looking at a single vehicle, you know, and you’ll still see it now. You go along the competition table and a lot of them will just have a dark wash on that’s making them jump out. Does that make it a better model? Does that make it a more realistic model? I would argue it probably doesn’t. I think there needs to be some variation in it.

Chris

I think though, do think we tend to follow each other a bit? I think even with the good shows, there’s certain things that when we’re judging, we get used to looking for and certain things that become kind of standard.

David

Yeah, there’s an accepted parlance of, you know, like little chips around bits and this and that, , rusty tracks and a little bit of streak here. Yeah, there’s definitely an accepted vocabulary of what makes a good model, in people’s eyes.

Chris

The danger of that is all models end up looking the same because everyone’s trying to use the same language.

David

Well, they do, that’s why. Again, you know, I’m flicking through social media today and something came up, somebody had done like a colour modulated vehicle and he just applied the paint basically, but it was all heavily colour modulated. I thought, “ooh, God”. But I thought I haven’t seen one those for a while. Because you don’t. It’s not a thing anymore. Never was a thing for me, but it was a thing.

Chris

For a while you couldn’t move for them.

David

Yeah, that used to sit with me and my focus on realism. I couldn’t get over painting different parts of the tank different shades of a particular colour because that’s not right. And then trying to blend them all into so they didn’t look like they were different colours.

Chris

The thing that got to me with it was the way they used to do really high contrast edges, like light edges, and then transition it through to the darker colour on the other side. But kind of like I’ve heard you say with non -metallic metal before, when they’re reflecting things that aren’t there, so the light reflections don’t work, you look at them thinking, how is the light hitting this in order to make all those panels look like that? There must be like 10 different lights. But because it was a very high contrast sort of attention-grabbing style, think it was very popular for a while.

David

It was, yeah, it was. I’m glad to see it on the way out. But, yeah, each to their own, I suppose. from a realism perspective, I just don’t think it was doing anybody any favours.

Chris

And like all styles, I think inevitably it ends up becoming a parody of itself. People go further and further and further with it until it’s way overdone. Like they did with Verlinden and dry-brushing.

David

Yes, exactly. Which is where realism brings you back. That’s what you’ve got that break on it. For me, I always think, you know, it stops you pushing and pushing and pushing for the sake of it to be different or dynamic or, you know, whatever it might be, because is it real? If it’s not, it needs reigning in doesn’t it? Did the thing actually look like that? Or as best as we can judge did it look like that?

Chris

Do you think accuracy and realism are dying out a bit in the age of the better detailed kits and so on?

David)

I think so, yeah, I think it’s a lot easier not to have to worry about things because you’re getting a better basic thing out of the box most of the time anyway. Or you can get away with a few little corrections or a few little improvements will make a big difference. But I think there’s certain people who will push themselves to sort of look beyond that and want things to be as good as they can be really in terms of what they’re doing and how correct it is

So, you know, it’s not my place to sort of tell people how they enjoy their hobby, but at the same time I think, that comes back to the whole “Rivet Counter” thing as well. There’s a very broad spectrum of approach, isn’t there? And the thing is, I think people who dare to point out a slight inaccuracy or a suggestion, they’re not doing it to sort of stop anybody else’s fun. They’re doing it to try and be helpful, or to try and impart some advice, some helpful advice or knowledge. It’s not just about undermining what’s been done. But I think we’re reaching the point sometimes where people just aren’t saying anything at all.

Chris

It’s safer not to, isn’t it.

David

Just to shut up, yeah.

Chris

Which is a shame.

David

I think so, yeah. But then you get to know the people who are open to sharing the right knowledge.

Chris

The only concern there is people new to it that want to learn. It’s harder for them to find the people now who can help them.

David

Yeah, I guess. Yeah, although, before the internet,  none of us had any of that anyway.

Chris

Although before the internet, we also didn’t have 100 people telling us it was great, regardless of whether it was or not.

David

Yeah, no, I wonder what that would have done to me as a young man.

Would I have just been happy with what I was doing then and just stuck with it because people were saying it’s great or not? Probably not.

Chris

Probably not, because you’d see other people’s and know, because you you have a realistic ability to assess yourself against the work of others.

David

Yeah. This is what I always say to people about rivet counting, the best modellers in the world, no matter who you pick, by and large, as a rule, the best modellers are rivet counters. Because it’s that attention to fiddly little details or finishes or whatever it is.

That’s what makes them the best, because they’re putting that detail, they’re putting that attention into it. They’re not just going, “that’s good enough”. They’re going, “that’s not good enough. That elbow joint’s not in the right place. I need to change that. It’s not convincing me,” or “that eye needs repainting because it’s wonky from the one next to it” or whatever it is. The best modellers are Rivet Counters

Chris

Rivet Counters are people who don’t accept mediocrity in their own work.

David

Yeah, don’t let themselves off.

Chris

All right, so who are your favourite rivet counters?

David

I’ve got to caveat this with the fact that I will remember several other people who I would like to include on this, my list, 20 minutes after the interview finishes.

Chris

It’s always the way. I’m the same.

David

people that I look up to and whose work I really admire. So I’m going to call out, he’s probably not as well known as some people, I’m calling out Liejon Schoot, who was building his King Tiger at about the same time as mine. And he was always a little bit ahead of me, which was a little bit frustrating, but it was also quite helpful because he kind of solved a few problems before I got to them. But he doesn’t make a big song and dance about what he does. Some people might have seen he’s been doing a similar thing with the SdKfz.251 in 16th scale, lot of scratch building, a lot of extra detailing, some of my parts and just he’s, he doesn’t, his painting and finishing style is quite subdued. There’s not a lot of fancy things going on there. It’s quite sort toned down in that respect but just the guy, he’s never satisfied with anything as it comes. If it’s not right, then he’ll fix it. And his finished things are just phenomenal he’s just an absolute craftsman, he’s brilliant.

Who else says, well, I’m thinking Roger Hurkmans because Roger’s the diorama builder I wish I was. You could take the vehicle out of his diorama and it’s a standalone class winner there. But then he puts it in the diorama. It’s always beautifully crafted. The buildings are just as good as the vehicle, if not better. And then they’re populated by all these figures and they’re not just stock figures. He’s modified them all, or he sculpted them. So, they’re all individual poses. They’re all telling a story. They’re all exquisitely painted. And not only that, really irritating me, seems to turn them around in a matter of sort of weeks and months. Something that would take me years to finish he’s rattled off in like a couple of weeks. There’s all this is the thing I’m doing and then there it is all finished and painted, so absolute genius.

I’m gonna call out Megas (Tsonos) as well. Megas with his Scratchbuilt aircraft, because my word! I’ve had the real privilege of going to his house, sitting there talking about his model and he showed me some of the stuff he’s done and how he’s done it. I mean to build a sterling bomber from absolutely nothing. Just incredible, and he’s another one who just the level of finesse, the finishing, the weathering, there’s no corners are cut, it all has to be right. Every little angle is checked and measured, and you know it’s just… He is, for me, the best aircraft modeller in the world, because he’s scratching, and then he finishes it to that exceptional standard. He paints models like nobody else model airplanes, that look you know? He’s not afraid to have them covered in oil or exhaust fumes or whatever. Because he’s an aircraft engineer, he knows what he’s doing with all that as well. I still remember the big balloon tires on one of those four engine bombers with big puddles of dripped oil on top of the tire. Because he’d observed that and that’s what he replicated. So yeah, he’s an absolute star as well.

Chris

Well, someone I think you would probably say, I’m putting words in your mouth now. We both know him. You know him better than me, think. Fanch Lubin.

David

Yes, absolutely, yeah. He’s another one. People like him and Megas are on another level with aeroplanes. Because I think with aircraft, and I don’t rate my aircraft models anywhere near like I do with my armour, but I think once you get to a certain level of skill and ability, then there should be this step up into a different sort of stratosphere of what you’re doing, and these guys are doing that, they’re going that extra level with these things, and yeah as I said as soon as we finish, I’m going to think of a whole list of people I’ve been embarrassed I haven’t remembered now. So I apologize to everybody.

Fabio Sachi and what he does with his, I mean, there’s another, he’s another guy. He can scratch build anything he wants.

Chris

He’s one of those people as well who isn’t nearly as well-known as they should

David

No, he’s an absolute genius. He is the nicest guy you could hope to meet. And not only can he scratch build and he goes and he puts everything right, fixes all the things he needs to fix. And then he pulls off this master stroke paint finish at the end of it. But again, it’s not all shouty. It’s not all effects. It’s not modulated this and high contrast that.

It’s just, this is what these things look like. And you look at it and go, that is what I can see. This is exactly what these things would have looked like. And it’s like you’ve turned that black and white image into a colour image. You’ve thought about it. It’s, you know, it’s all balanced bits. And that’s the difference. That’s where these guys are really, you know, because it’s about realism and that’s why it’s so convincing. And it’s not about fancy effects or trendy styles, but it is about replicating reality in miniature. Definitely.

Chris

It’s ironic that it’s one of the hardest things to do, yet one of the least showy ways you can do a model.

David

Yeah, a lot of these models just get overlooked because they’re all dark pin washes and chippy this, that and the other.

But, you know, we’ve featured his work in the magazine so many times. The list could go on and on. There’s so many, so many people doing really, really excellent work and a lot of them flying completely under the radar, because they’re not making a song and dance about what they’re doing or giving it a name. You know,  they’re just getting on, and doing what they do, but doing it really well.

Chris

Plus if you’re listening and think it’s you, yes you.

David

Yeah absolutely. And if I bumped into you in the next show it’s definitely you. No but once you start you know there’s so many guys you know?

Chris
All right, I ask this to everyone and it’s the most horrible question in all of modelling, potentially. Why do you think we actually make these little things?

David

that is a very good question. I can only speak for myself in all ways.

something neat, fascination with miniatures, whether it was sort of toy cars or model train sets or whatever it was when I was a boy. And it always has fascinated me and always will, I think. I think

The question is why though, isn’t it?

There’re things that I can identify about it that are particular to me that make it what it is. So it’s something I can do on my own. I don’t have to socially integrate with anybody else to do it. It’s something that has a lot of sort of… mindfulness about it, i .e. when you’re doing that you can’t be worrying about other things. So that’s very helpful. It’s not dependent on the weather, so I can do it whenever I want to. It’s not a seasonal thing, it doesn’t depend on other people. It’s something I have absolute control over, and it’s become something I’m very good at. So, we bring all those things together, I think.

I’ve got some Asperger’s syndrome going on, so it sits very nicely with that kind of personality and gives me a great deal.

 When I was a boy and I was making models, I was particularly pleased with how something was coming on, I was halfway through. So, my equivalent of posting on social media back then, my parents would kind of go, “you going to stop now because you’ve been in there making your models all day, come down and watch the telly.” I’d bring the thing I was working on and put it on the mantelpiece, or on the table next to me, so I could keep looking at it whilst watching the TV

whatever it was. I’d be turning it around to see it. That’s how obsessed I was with that creative thing and I still am today, I get absolutely focused on it, on a thing now, and just a look of it sometimes you know?

David

I’ve got a half built 251 sitting on the desk next to me here and I keep glancing across at it. It just looks so cool. It’s a complete mess. It’s a track off it and all sorts because I’m using it to sculpt figures. So it’s nowhere near finished. It’s just a real build mural for posing figures in. But just, there’s something about it,

 Chris (

It’s going to sound weird now, but I kind of feel like I fall in love with every project. If I don’t, it never gets finished.

David

Yes, I really agree with that. there’s an absolute, you know, there has to be some of that otherwise it doesn’t get done.

Chris

But once you do, you’re constantly kind of looking at it, thinking about it. And the funny thing is once it’s over, onto the next one.

David

Yeah, because that becomes the new focus. But how I managed to do that for seven and half years, I’m not quite sure. I did.

Chris

Well, David, this has been fantastic, and it’s gone on much longer than I said it would, so apologies for that. But thank you very much for joining us.

David

That was fun. Thanks, Chris for having me, it’s been an absolute pleasure

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In the last blog, I talked to Jean Andre about colour, and our conversation mostly concerned colour in dioramas, and due to my own background perhaps: scale models. During that conversation, Jean and I touched on figures, but I thought it would be really good to talk to a figure modeller about colour to round out the conversation.

The painter I chose, is Tue Kaae. Tue is someone I met last year at Scale Model Challenge, when he took part in the figure painting panel discussion Tracy and I recorded for the Sprue Cutters Union Podcast. I was really impressed by how deeply Tue thinks about what he does, and how articulate he is in discussing it, and that’s exactly the kind of creator I want to bring you for this podcast and blog.

Before I get on to the interview, I just want to remind you that the Model Philosopher is sponsored by the world’s leading hobby show, the most exciting event in the model calendar for figure modellers, armour modellers, diorama modellers, aircraft modellers, ship modellers and every other kind of modeller: Scale Model Challenge.

Scale Model Challenge is not just a show, it’s a full rich event that celebrates the hobby and craft of modelling with a world class competition with over 3000 entries each year, where everyone from beginners to the leading modellers in the hobby, come to show their work to their peers. They have a program of 14 workshops from leading modellers and painters, including Gerard Boom, Eric Swinson, and Jean Bernard André where you don’t just get to hear what they do, you get to work on a project with their instruction and personal guidance. There are over 150 unique vendors selling everything from kits, to limited edition figures, to tools, to aftermarket, to diorama accessories and everything else you might need for your own miniature masterpiece, and all in a phenomenal conference venue easy to reach by air, road or rail with the world famous (in modelling circles) abbey bar.

It’s the show you should never miss. Scale Model Challenge. Check out the details at www.scalemodelchallenge.com  or look up scale model challenge on the socials

OK back to our interview. Lets dive in and hear from Tue:

Chris
welcome to the Model Philosopher to Tue Kaae. Thank you for joining us

Tue

I’m happy to be here. I’m very, very happy for the opportunity. You’re supplying a reach to an audience that I don’t normally have a chance to talk to. So I’m super happy to be here.

Chris

Well, I’m hoping modelists of all kinds, for want of a better word, are going to get something out of this podcast. It’s not quite as subject driven as the Spruecutters Union podcast that I did, in terms of being aimed more at modelers, rather than figure painters or something else.

It’s more about the concepts. And I think the concepts can be universal. But that being said, I hope people have listened to the last episode (or read the previous blog) where I spoke to Jean -Andre about colour and he spoke from a diorama point of view. But I was very conscious, while we were talking, that we had a kind of a bias in favour of dioramas and models. And given that colour is something which I think is far more developed in figure modelling and figure painting circles.

I wanted to get someone on to talk from that point of view. The first time I remember seeing your work was very recently, because I’m a bit late to the party, at World Model Expo. And I was really struck by the use of colour you did there. So I got in touch and we decided to get you on and talk from your point of view.

Tue

So, with military modelling, is that the right word? Yeah, historical modelling. I think the base premise, the sort of the merit that everyone has agreed that is to be achieved is about correctness. It’s about getting the right colour.

Chris

Hmm. I guess so, yeah.

Tue

It’s about, I mean, “museum grade” is like a really high praise. So everything is about getting things right. Where the base mindset in my end of the fantasy painting is to get things exciting.

So, the whole idea about what we as a community have decided is merits to be achieved. They’re just very different. They’re not better or worse, but it’s just a very different mindset. I don’t care if the orc is green or red or brown or whatever, as long as it looks cool.

Chris

I did chuckle slightly there, the reason for that is when people say “it’s museum quality”. Most of the models I’ve seen in museums are pretty awful. So it always makes me laugh when people say that like it’s a good thing. But it is, I mean, it’s a phrase which people take, you know, to have a meaning, which is that it’s good.

Now, with colour accuracy, this is something I came across, in particularly in aircraft modelling, because I used to edit Scale Aircraft Modelling magazine for Guideline Publications. And there was a lot of talk about scale colour accuracy, to the point where it was important to the exclusion of everything else. And I think that is very the idea of accuracy and realism, in air quote marks, because realism to me is a subjective, value judgment. It’s not an objective truth because how realism observed changes person to person.

But anyway, caveats aside, I’m getting diverted already. I think it’s something that is changing. Certainly, from my own point of view, I’m not so interested in colour accuracy anymore in military modelling. I’m more interested in telling the truth by which I mean sort of the emotional truth and the story truth that I am with making the model completely accurate.

Tue

So many people think that accuracy is truth, and they might be right, but I think it’s a very, very boring version of it. mean, all the history, all the story that we get told is subjective as stories told by the victor.

Chris

don’t get me started on that. don’t believe in that phrase. It drives me mad. I think that’s something people say, but it’s not actually always true. If it was, then we wouldn’t have the Confederate “lost cause” thing and we wouldn’t have neo -Nazis telling us that, you know, the Germans were far more powerful than they actually were, and things like that. to a certain extent, yes, but also no. But anyway, we’re going to get distracted again.

This is gonna be one of those conversations where we constantly go off all over the place. But for me, the way it works is a fact is something which is observably so, from various different points of view. So, a fact is something that people can agree on is a fact is a thing. A truth is an opinion that you form of the fact based on the fact. So a truth is something that feels right to you, but isn’t necessarily shared by everyone else.

Everyone can have kind of their own idea of what’s truth, but facts are facts, if you see what I mean. So one’s subjective, which is truth, and the other’s objective, which is facts. But that’s, basically semantics, and this isn’t really an English semantics podcast. So I don’t really want to get into that.

Tue

But I find language fascinating and interesting. And to me, fact and truth are the same.

Chris

To most people they are. Perhaps I separate them just because it suits me for my argument, who knows? But you did say something else there, which was more important and something we should get back to. Remind me, what did you say about colour in fantasy?

Tue

Hahaha

So, the fantasy painting community is sort of splitting at the moment, kind of similar to the way that fantasy broke off from historical, like 20 years, 30 years ago. There’s two different main directions that fantasy painters go into.

I’m clearly and firmly in the fantasy miniature art direction, and I want to do less and less trope stuff, less and less fantasy stuff. And there’s a faction that is led by Games Workshop and Golden Demon and that whole crowd. And that one is actually, by now, relatively close to the old school historical stuff. So, you are starting to get Warhammer rivet counters. Like people who put down your paint job because you put the wrong logo on the knee pad of the spacer. And then it doesn’t matter how well you paint it because you made a mistake and that is not the way that it’s supposed to be.

Chris

Well, when they created the lore and there’s hundreds of books now, I know I’ve been reading some of them, they’re quite good, some of them. But when they created that, they created a history basically for their fantasy universe. And it’s an incredibly detailed history, which has mostly a strong continuity to it, you know, a strong canon. So essentially, it’s historical modelling, just the history’s made up.

Tue

Yep, yep, it is.

Chris

but it has the same restriction, like you say, doesn’t it? That if you want to paint an ultramarine, you should use Macragge blue, because that’s the correct blue for an ultramarine. And any other blue is incorrect and stuff. And so you get these restrictions they’ve created for themselves.

Tue

Yeah. And they did that because it’s a company and they want a coherent marketing. want you to instantly see that it’s a Games Workshop miniature. They have all kinds of motivations about that. But it means that it spills down into the miniature painting as well. So personally, I would much rather see a brown or red orc because it’s more interesting. I mean, green can be interesting well, but in that other direction, orcs need to be green.

So I’m speaking very much from my side of that fence. I think we’ll get a stronger and stronger division between the two. Not that the relation between the two groups will be divisive, but there’s a definite, just different currents, whereas some people want a much more miniature art and emotive and artistic prostrate.

So I think the majority of people prefer the like escapism world building thing.

Chris

It may surprise you, but a similar kind of thing is happening in scale modelling and history modelling as well. That there are some people, mostly diorama makers that want to do something artistic and emotive and it tells a story. Even if the story is based on history, want to, the story is more important than the colours and so on. But most people want to make an accurate thing based on the rules.

and so on. So I think in a way it’s kind of similar. Is it really interesting that fantasy’s done that though? Because it didn’t need to do it, if you see what I mean. Because you’re starting out from something created, something imagined, you would think maybe it’s just something about people. Some people like rules, some people don’t like rules.

Tue

Yeah, yeah. I think so. I think so. I’m very, very happy to hear that it’s happening in the historical community. I had a feeling that it was. I think that the whole… I’m gonna rant now. Are you ready?

Chris

Yeah, go for it. We love rants.

Tue

So I think that there’s a lot of gatekeeping in the historical community. We’re getting quite a bit in the fantasy one as well, most of the sort of base infrastructure in historical is made around “if you don’t do things the way that Shepard Paine would have done, you’re doing it wrong.” You can modernize some of the techniques, but there’s some very, very set in stone merits that you have to stick to. And if you’re painting your tank pink, the first question [is not] “that’s interesting. Why did you do that?”, The first interaction is “you did it wrong”. And I think it’s a really, really unhealthy way to build communities. And it’s a very common way to build communities. And I think that fantasy, at least my side of the fantasy, are way better at that. And having that much more free mindset about what you can do, it’s much more how you can interpret the stuff in an interesting way. It definitely started with the diorama Builders, just as you’re saying, but there’s a definite pull in the opposite direction.

The problem is that there’s a lot of money in it now as well. And especially at competitions, it’s very, very clear that there’s a lot of money in it and money is steered by consumers, and consumers have no taste and no taste for something new and something different. They basically just want whatever they’ve been told the past years that they should want. It’s why pop music is forever there.

Chris

I think it’s kind of true, but I also think that people don’t know what they want until they see it. And until they see it, they think they want what they can already get. So I think you need risk takers to show them something new, but the risk is you won’t make any money. And as long as its money involved, people are risk-averse.

Tue

Mmm, yep. I agree.

Yeah, I’m extremely privileged that I can spend a lot of hours doing the things that I do and I don’t need to sell them. The problem is that most of the people who paint to a very high degree, they do that for a living and they need to sell whatever they’re making. So they’re tied to the money. They can’t just take out two months and do their own thing because so many of them either are already professionals

We have a lot of professionals now, or they wanna be professionals and then they need to follow the current. So I’m doing something that is very different than most other people and I’m privileged enough to be able to do that. I mean, generally I don’t sell my pieces. I sold two pieces, I think, and those were relatively random. Because I spend a lot of time, I’m not mainstream.

I don’t have a large social media presence. I don’t have the things that you need to have in order to make a lot of money on it. I just do these things. Don’t even really do them for myself that much. I do them in order to show people a different way. I’m the risk taker and I think challenging the standards is way more interesting than doing something that everyone agrees look pretty.

Chris

Well, see, this is something that I could do a whole episode about. think at some point in the future we need to, because I should tell you there’s no money in the historical modelling side, maybe in the historical miniature side, but not in the historical modelling side. No one pays anyone to do anything. There’s no money in it at all. And yet they still put restrictions on themselves.

Tue

They do seem to.

Chris

Anyway, colour plays a big role in your work, which is why I asked you on. So where do you get your inspiration for colour from? Is it from arts? Is it from nature? What has the biggest influence on you in colour?

Tue

It’s definitely not miniatures, but it’s a very, very wide ranging thing. I get a lot of inspiration from mostly digital painting. I think there’s a lot of inspiration in oil paintings and the old stuff. I generally want more contrast than you get in the old stuff. mean, Rembrandt paints fantastic portraits, but there’s not a lot of colour in it.

And you can develop a palette that is very harmonious, like Rembrandt, and get wonderful things out of it. But you’re choosing not to use the colour contrast as a tool in your arsenal. And I would rather use all the tools that I have access to. So I get a lot of inspiration from like 10, 15 different 2D illustrators.

That’s mostly where things come from. I mean, almost all of my stuff is I see some little doodle or a half an illustration. And then I think I remember how it looks. And when I look at it again, it doesn’t look anything like I thought it did, but I’m just running with that idea. But mostly I get my inspiration from illustrators. I do quite a lot

So I would call them love letters to artists, not fan art as such, because fan art most of the time is 3D versions of 2D artwork. And I’d much rather play with their style and their palette and do love letters to their style instead of doing copies of their work. So do that a lot and study the way that they use colours.

Chris

I don’t know if you listened to the first episode with Calvin Tan, but we said in that the art is a conversation. That, you know, that when you do something, you’re starting, you’re opening a conversation and you’re inviting the viewer to respond to it with their own thoughts and so on. It sounds to me like what you’re doing is having a conversation with the artist. They’re saying something and you’re responding to that, if you see what I mean, in the same language.

Tue

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I wanna have the conversation with the viewer of my stuff as well.

I use colour a lot, but I use colour as my premium tool to steer attention. So, contrast is very, very important. But if you’re just using contrast for contrast’s sake, it’s kind of pointless to me. To me, it’s all about the narrative. It’s all about the story, the person, and you’re using all the different things: matte and gloss, dark and light, saturated and desaturated. All those things are tools that you use in order to push the narrative. But I do use colour a lot for that.

I think a lot of people think that more saturation and more colour, this is especially true in the fantasy side of things. A lot of people just think that more is better. But it means that you get miniatures where everything is taken to a hundred percent saturation and all the different colours are fighting each other and then it’s just really busy and really messy and there’s no calm spots. You need stuff that that grabs attention and have lots of contrast either value or saturation and you need areas that are more dull. The dull areas I would argue is actually more important than the bright ones because they’re the ones that set it

You can’t really have light if you don’t have dark. If you just have more light, then it’s just a wash.

Chris

I think of it when I’m editing the sound on this, or if you look at the waveform of music, good music has some high end, some mid end and some bottom end. And if you, there’s no bottom end, it sounds tinny and there’s no sort of driving power to it. If you take the top end off, it sounds murky, muddy and there’s no sort of sharpness to the music at all. It’s very sort of flat. And it’s the same, I think with light and colour, you need all three. I’ve said it before about colour, about being muddy, you know, with everything in the mid range and not enough in the top and the bottom. But I think if you don’t have it balanced, not just light as well, but as you’re saying with contrast, areas of low contrast and areas of very high contrast and so on. If there isn’t balance to it, then it never works really.

Tue

Yeah, I use framing a lot as well. And I use colours for framing.


Chris

Can you tell us what you mean by framing?

Tue
So framing is colour placement. To me, everything is about focus management. It’s about getting the viewer to look at the stuff that you want them to look at. My similar piece about that is my space camel walking library, the one with orange backdrop where I pulled out all the boats. There’s a lot of that miniature that is very rough because there’s a lot of areas that are really fine around the rider. And if you have a fine and defined section, the eye naturally goes towards that. So you can do it with colour, can do it with value, and you can do it with detailing and all kinds of different things.

So I’m using framing for that miniature, for instance. There’s a few metallic parts. The metallic parts are chrome. So it’s the Molotov Chrome. They’re really, really, really shiny. But they’re all arranged in a circle around the main focus. So I’m the focus with these metallic bits. If you have a miniature and like if you have a figure in an A pose. Then you do light on the hands and light on the face, but the face should be a little bit lighter. That way you’ll have a triangle with the focal point being the top of the triangle. And that will mean that you naturally look at the face. That is framing. Doing a light face and like a light scarf, but a black line between the face and the scarf, that is framing. So you’re basically making frames around what you want people to look at, mostly round frames. And they’re never like complete frames, but they’re like dotted frames.

Chris

There’s enough there to create the effect without being too obvious what you’re doing.

Tue

Yeah, yeah. If you’re doing a miniature that’s standing on a road, you make sure that the road section that they’re standing on is brighter or darker or anything. You’re making a circle on the pavement. It’s not terribly realistic, but hey, it’s a pavement. It could be any colour. And by making it lighter around a dark figure, you’re creating that framing to pull the eye towards that.

It’s one of my favorite things to play with. So if you do highlights, so you can do highlights if you have the same A -pose miniature, then you do highlights on the top of the sleeves and on the seam on the top of the shoulder. And if you make them a little bit more pointed there, you’re actually painting an

So the sleeves and then the shoulder thing. And you can actually just paint arrows on your miniature. And you can be very, very, obvious and brash about it. You can just paint arrows on the miniature to point to what you want people to look at. And people are not going to notice. And it’s fun to see how much you can put it.

Chris

Ha! Literal arrows! Because they’re too busy looking at the thing that you’re pointing them to look

Tue

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Chris

Do you think sometimes technique overwhelms purpose in miniature painting? Do think people get too hung up on technique and lose sight of what it’s for?

Tue

All the time. I think it’s very, very common.

The way that we teach people in miniature painting is technique first. So, you’re sitting down, then you teach people how to do shading or glazes or highlights or whatever else. Technique is the first thing that you teach people. And I’m guilty of that myself.

Technique is very important to have in place in order to do the other things. But that means that everyone gets schooled in thinking of technique first. Thinking of how important it is to get smooth blends or whatever else your chosen technique is. And everything else gets forgotten alongside. So, when I go to competitions, I think…the most interesting things are not in the master category, it’s in the standard category. Because those are the people who are much more free. So, they aren’t as encumbered with technique and with everything being neat and sort of living up to our shared standards.

You can [see] much more that the ideas, sort of your fancy of the moment, shine through. And you get a lot more of that in the standard category.

So, my philosophy about this [is] when you come up with an idea, you have this little spark of an idea. That’s sort of the center of what you do. You see some documentary or a painting or something like that. And that spark is what is best about your piece. So it’s the core value of it. And the longer time you spend on that piece, the more difficult it is to keep connecting to that spark of the idea. If you spend 200 hours, it’s so easy to let that idea be buried under many, layers of perfection and doubt and all kinds of other things. But that idea is so important to keep because it’s what gives you a peace life.

And lots of the really like well painted things, they lose that spark. And there’s so much more of that when you don’t develop too much into the technique. When you don’t pay too much attention to everything being perfect. It’s much easier to keep it fluid and alive and keep that spark.

So I think that in many ways technique is the opposite of what I want. Like non-metallic metal is something that everyone does right now. And it doesn’t matter too much if it’s really well blended and painted, as long as the light is in the right locations. The light placement and the light location, the reflection from the metal, it is much more important for those to be in the right place than them being neat.

And it’s very difficult to keep those locations if you are too busy with technique.

Chris

I think I’ve observed sort of fashions in technique. About 10, 15 years ago, contrast got really extreme where all the highlights were white, and all the shadows were black. And there was actually very little in between. Figures started to look almost black and white in the super-high-contrast era, which thankfully seems to have been killed by the high saturation colour in fantasy mostly, because it was more of a historical miniatures thing.

Tue

Yeah.

Chris

But also, as you say, we’ve got the non-metallic metal is the fashion or has been the fashion for a few years and perhaps it’s beginning to fade a bit now. Do you think there are fashions in colour as well?

Tue

definitely. Definitely. So in the fantasy side of things, we have like a Spanish school. There’s a very strong, very good community in Spain. And mostly it stems from Jose Palomares, who is the CEO of Big Child Creatives. And he’s taught a lot of people and they have taught a lot of others. So, most things stems from this person. And the way that the Spanish people paint, it is very saturated and they’re using a lot of the same colours and they’re painting in that way because it’s extremely effective. It’s a very quick and very good way to get cool looking, good looking box arts.

 And there’s definite fashions in colours as well. One of the classic examples is named colours. Like there’s an ice yellow that everyone uses. There’s a deep sea-blue that everyone uses. Those are fashion colours. For the old school crowd, there’s a goblin green that’s very fashion based as well. And fashion is all set by the top level of painters or the grouping with the strongest impact and the strongest sort of sway over the community, sets the idea of what colour to use.

Right now there’s a lot of green-red contrast. We had a [period] with a lot of orange and teal contrast, and we’re sort of moving out from that. So there’s definitely fashion. But also there’s fashion with just more colours. The bit that you thought about that miniatures used to be black and white and now they got really, really coloured. When I did my space camel, it’s like eight years ago or so, I put it into the contest in Monte Savino and it was just super fucking colourful. Everyone gravitated towards that because it was just bright orange and like so colourful. And most of the other things were relatively dull compared to that. Then like four years later or so, I took it to the World Model Expo and put it into the competition at World Model Expo. And it fit in because everything else was super colourful as well. And seeing that change has been really exciting. And I think changes happen really, really quick in the fantasy crowd. We’re sort of going through all the different periods of classical art. Like we’re going through naturalism and realism and surrealism and all those different movements with their associated colour choices. And we just sort of fast forwarding through them because we already know that all of it exists.

And we’re getting into sort of impressionism right now, where people are much more about painting the ambience and the colour setting and the mood of the piece

Chris

I’ve even seen it with the style because the sort of the high, highly blended style is given way slightly to sort of pointillism and stippling in transitions and stuff like that. So even the sort of impressionist painting technique is coming through as well.

Tue

Yeah, we mostly have one person to thank for that, Alfonso Giraldes, who marketed the fuck smoothness because he’s a Spanish guy and he’s loud and brash. But he’s really the one that pioneered the idea that not only should everything not be smooth, but it’s actually better if it isn’t. And I’m totally on board with that.

I think that if everything is smooth, everything is done to the highest level, then if everyone is super, no one is. If everything is super saturated, nothing really is. So that contrast between smooth and rough is very important. As important to me as with colours.

But choosing specificity to use… You started by asking where my inspiration for colours is. And a lot of what I do is not go full in. Because if you make a relatively dull piece, it’s not a bad piece. It’s just a different decision. You could do a very desaturated piece. And if you do those things then you have the option to add a little dash of full-core saturation somewhere. So if you do like a British waterfront in the fall, everything is going to be gray and brown. But it affords you the possibility of doing a little challenge with a very red apple. Then everything will be about that apple or the ball cap or the football or whatever. So you’re steering focus and you’re steering narrative with the colour choices.

Chris

Have you seen the film? Don’t Look Now with Donald Sutherland? It’s a 70s film and it’s worth watching. It’s really interesting because it does what you say. The whole film is quite drab and dark. Even though it starts off in England and it goes to Venice, it’s quite dark. It’s about a couple whose daughter dies in an accident, and they go to Venice with his job and to try and sort of get over it. But he’s haunted all the time by the colour red because she was wearing a red coat when she died. And it’s the one bright coat in the film and it keeps popping up all the way through the film as this kind of motif until it ends with quite a shocking end with another person in a red coat. But it’s similar to what you say, you know, because the rest of the film is gray and brown and black, that red really jumps out the whole way through. that’s kind of what you’re talking about, isn’t it?

Tue

Yeah, and if you’re tied down by certain things having to be a certain colour, you don’t have that freedom. So that’s the main reason why I don’t wanna subscribe to that, is that I want to have the freedom to place the colour where I can use it most effectively.

Chris

I’ve also seen a fashion in the last few years as well with the high saturation thing that all of the colours are turned up to 11. And that has a similar kind of effect to them all being dull, if you see what I mean.

Tue

Well, it’s developed, the Spanish style is sort of what is pushing that agenda. And the Spanish style is developed to be very eye -catching in the social media age that we’re in now. So basically it’s made to be memorable when you look at it for one and second. That is its purpose. And then it needs to be turned up to 11.

Chris

it catches attention. Yeah, I can see what mean when you’re scrolling on Instagram, if something comes up that really jumps at you.

Tue

Yeah, and that is its purpose. Just like the Games Workshop style is developed to be showcasing miniature shapes and surfaces.

Chris

and to sell Games Workshop Paints.

Tue

And to sell Games Workshop paints. that’s… The Game’s Workshop paint selling thing actually comes second to that. Primarily, it’s designed to showcase miniature shapes. It’s why they do highlights on the outside of all the volumes instead of where light would naturally fall. It is to showcase, “hey, this is the shape.”

Chris

I think it’s also, without getting too off -subject again, but it’s also about making it easy to paint for kids and for people that have whole armies to paint quickly. The sculpts are very much designed for that, aren’t they? They have very strong edge shapes and what have you to make them easier to paint, basically. I mean, I’ve been painting quite a few recently, as I said before we came on, I play with my son. Compared to historical miniatures, they’re so easy to paint because all the folds are very sharp or very defined, all the weapons, all the details of them are very defined.

Tue

They are made specificity so that 12 to 14 year old boys can paint

Chris

and they can get reasonably good at it quickly and not be discouraged.

Tue

Yeah. And especially with the contrast paint that they developed specifically for that. There’s another podcast: The Painting Phase. They have a Game Workshop product developer with an interview that talk about the, basically the excitement curve of painting. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-63A7cDkOm8)

where when you sit down and paint, you have to paint for a long long time before it looks good. And that’s what they made contrast for. It’s for it to look good after 10 minutes instead of 4 hours.

Chris

There’s a phase on miniatures that you always go through. And when I spoke about it on Small Subjects, Jim DeRogatis came up with the perfect phrase for it, “embrace the suck”, where you go through a stage on every miniature where it just sucks. And you just think, “why am I doing this? Where am I going with it?” And “it’s just awful”. But you have to kind of trust what your plan is and get through it. But that’s something you learn after years of painting that

part of it and you don’t need to worry about it. You just need to keep going. For new painters,  particularly when they got a squad of 10 Space Marines to paint, the suck is the kind of thing that can stop them painting. So anything you can do to take that away is a good way to keep people buying the product.

Tue

And it doesn’t necessarily have to be about buying the product. It’s a way to keep people happy about what they do, content with their results, they’re about doing it again.

Chris

Well, the best way to keep people buying it is to make them enjoy it or to help them enjoy it. So if they’re enjoying it, they’ll keep coming back.

Tue

Yeah. Yep. I mean, Games Workshop is a major part of why we actually have a community. Workshop doing a fantastic job getting people into it and have been doing so for years and years and years. If it wasn’t for Games Workshop, Fantasy Painting wouldn’t be like nothing near the size that we are

Chris

I have to agree.

So ,we’ve talked about the sort of the colour and what role that can play in framing. And we’ve talked a little bit about desaturation. Do you just use desaturation to create the contrast against saturated colours or do you use it in other ways as

Tue

So desaturation is a very, very good way to set the scene, like the mood of what you’re doing. So you can invent an environment, like a cyberpunk environment, where the ambience is really bright. Like you could paint a miniature that’s entirely magenta, and then here and there, you’re painting something different.

But most of the environments that we think of, they’re relatively desaturated. when I look at miniature painting, like if you look at the surface for miniature painting, I sort of put it into three categories. So there’s a shadow area, a mid -tone area, and a highlight area. That’s true for all miniatures. I use a shadow area for a setting, for ambience. On most of my miniatures, there’s the same colour in all the shadows. It’s going to be a relatively desaturated colour, and it sets sort of the scene for it all. So, if I paint the ground orange, the shadow colour will be orange brown. If I want to do an ocean scene or like a foggy scene, it’s going to be like a bluish gray colour. And all the shadows are the same

no matter what material or whatever. Then the mid -tone, I use that for material information. It’s where I do textures, it’s where I do colour, it’s where I inform people about what the specific shape is made out of and what its properties are.

The top section, the highlight section, sometimes the middle section bleeds into that, but the top section is mostly to manage focus. So it’s where I can introduce higher value in order to pull attention. And it’s where I describe shape and volume and sort of the hardness of the material. So if it’s a hard material, you want sharper, smaller highlights on those areas. Whereas if it’s a wool coat, you want a softer [highlight].

Tue

So those are the ways that I use the different surfaces. And that is true for every surface in every piece. And I use all the desaturated colours in the shadows. I don’t want black shadows. For some things, a black shadow would be good. I’ve done some experimentation with cell shading and in cell shading you need all the colours, all the shadows to be black. But I think desaturation is an extremely important tool in order to get coherency and in order to have some surfaces be like support surfaces and other ones be focal surfaces. So if I want to paint like a green soldier guy with a red beret, then I will make sure that the red beret is just about the only thing that’s really red in the scene because it’s what I will be using to pull attention to the face.

But I will also want some reddish things somewhere. I’ll want reddish brown boots or some clay ground he’s standing on, something else. It should be red, but it should be a desaturated red. Because that will be like the colour foundation for the red beret to be really red. Because if you do a scene that’s only got the red beret as the only red thing, it’s going to be quite brittle and feel quite alone, because what you thought about music actually earlier, that you need the bass, you need the treble. Otherwise the high points, they’ll just feel brittle and tinny. So that’s where you need the desaturating colours in order to support the really saturated ones.

Chris

Who do you think in the miniature world uses colour best? Who do you look up to?

Tue

that’s a good question.

I think many different painters have their different strong points. I think Eric Swinson is really, really good with light and shadow.

I think Arnau Lazaro is very, very good with very subtle colours, introducing some pink into the skin tones, some blues and greens, [he’s] very good with subtleties.

I think Marc Masclans is very, very, very good with textures and sort of balancing that.

I think Kirill Kanaev is very, very good with metal. We all know that, but that’s just the flashy part of it. I think the way that he does realistic textures and skin tones and especially the way that he does really subtle lighting is really really fantastic. I think there’s a lot of different painters that have very strong talents in their specific field. And I admire all of them and I want to be all of them for what they do. But there’s really none of them that does everything that I want to do.

Chris

I think they would probably say the same thing. mean, if you are all different, you’re all individuals and you all have your own vision of what, you know, a great miniature would be. So yours isn’t going to perfectly align with theirs, but there are things about them that you can say they have really great at that.

Tue

Yeah. And all the people that I mentioned there, they have a lot of things in common as well. So none of them will paint a material in just one colour. So if the character has a blue shirt on, the shadows and the highlights are not going to be blue. They’re going to be something different. They’re going to be reflective of the atmosphere, of the wear, the highlights.

Like if you have a wool coat, if you do light desaturated colours, cold colours, then it’s going to look more new and crisp. And if you do… less bright browner colours, then it’s going to look more warm. You can do the same with the shadows. But none of these people, and myself neither, will paint a material just one colour. I find that really boring.

Chris

You mentioned there about ambient colour. I think that’s one way you can use colour for storytelling. Is there other ways you think that colour can be used to tell a story.

Tue

So the classic example is Schindler’s List. So there’s a girl in Schindler’s List, funnily enough, in a red coat. That’s the only bit of colour in that movie. Actually, Jaws is maybe a better example. So Jaws,  whenever there’s something yellow in the frame the shark is nearby

If you go through the movie and look for yellow, then you’ll only see yellow when the shark is nearby. So it’s sort of a subconscious danger signal that you can go for.

Chris

I think storytelling on miniatures can be very difficult because you don’t have the diorama setting to put it in. But I know it’s something you love to do,

Tue

Yeah. I went to Poland about a month ago to go to contrast and I saw a miniature there from a relatively new painter called Veronica. And it’s a fairy, but it’s a fairy with the acne. So it’s a fairy with unperfect skin. The piece is called, “Why Can’t I Be Pretty Like the Other Fairies?” And it’s a really, really good way to storytell. It’s such a small thing that is being introduced. It’s such a small tool, but it tells a lot of story about that character.

Chris

It punches like a hundred emotional buttons about coming of age and about beauty standards and not fitting in. Yeah, there’s a lot going on there.

Tue

Yeah, it does.

Tue

Yeah, so you can do storytelling in single figures, but it’s way easier if you have some more going on.

I don’t actually think that it’s very difficult to do storytelling in single figures, but I think the range of figures that we have access to that are good storytelling canvases is very small. Because you can no problem do storytelling in a single figure, but all the miniatures that we have access to, they’re made for production. And for production to be successful, it needs to have a very broad audience, so you can’t really make things that are too pigeon -holed into one thing, so they get more neutral, and therefore they’re very hard to use for storytelling. But if you make a miniature specifically with storytelling in mind, it’s not a problem to do it with just a single miniature.

So I think that it’s not that people are bad at it. I think that our available palette to paint on is bad.

Chris

Why do you think we make miniatures? Why do you think we do it? It’s a very odd thing when you think about it, to sit there and paint tiny things.

Tue

It’s one of my favourite topics actually. I think that a lot of people have very little agency in their life and they need somewhere where they can decide. A lot of people do it for escapism. A lot of people do it just to have a joyful moment in their life. A lot of people do it because they’re swallowed up by this super, super over-busy world that’s constantly fighting for your attention and being able to just put all the social media, all the other stuff aside, let you focus. And that’s why they do it. It’s why I think it’s very important to have a workshop, to have somewhere where you can go, where you can’t see the dirty dishes. A lot of people..I wouldn’t… I think self -indulgence is a weighted term, but I think it’s actually what it is. It’s having the opportunity to do this thing just for…Whereas everything else we do, we do for everyone else.

I think there’s a lot of value in it as well. Because it gives you, it sounds almost religious and stuff. It lets you have a calm mental moment where you can just focus on one thing and let everything else sort of flow away. It lets you escape from a very busy world and just focus on one thing. It’s almost like…

Chris

meditation.

Tue

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It’s almost like meditation. It’s a very mindfulness thing to paint miniatures. And I think that the need to be very precise and very controlled in that is very good for that one thing. A lot of meditation is about controlling your breath. And that’s not really because controlling breath is important. It’s just an important tool, it’s just a convenient tool. The breath is something that every person have, at least while they’re still conscious. So breath is, it’s the same for everyone and it’s something that everyone has that they can focus on. Whereas sitting and painting miniatures is not something that everyone has, but I think it’s got the same function. It demands 100 % focus in order to get it right. That means

your entire frontal lobe can do that thing and then everything else in the subconscious can just relax and let go

It’s very freeing.

Chris

I think we’ve opened a lot of doors that I’d like to explore another time. So if you would come back on, that would be fantastic. We’ll book that sometime in the future.

Tue

Yeah. definitely, definitely. Yeah, there’s plenty of topics that I would like to discuss, but I think that we’ve covered this one for now, I think.

Tue

Maybe tell people that being brave is very liberating.

Chris

Hmm take risks

Tue

Yeah, not just risks. Do what feels right instead of what you’ve been told is right. So paint bravely. If you feel like the uniform should be more green, if you feel like this person should have red skin instead of pink skin, do it. It’s a very freeing experience and it’s liberating.

Staying too focused on what we think is right, what… Staying too focused on what we think will get our peers recognition, can get in the way of our personal enjoyment. And it’s very, very difficult to get out of that. And taking chances and just doing whatever you feel is fine is a good way.

Probably my most common thing right now is that everyone paints for results. So whenever you sit down and paint a miniature, the expectation is to have a finished miniature that you can show to others, either at shows, online, or somewhere else. That’s the declared, in quotation marks, “final result”.

But it means that everyone needs to be high performance, because all of it needs to be a high quality, because you’re putting your name and you’re putting it out, and everyone can look at your stuff and judge how good you are. So if everything needs to be about producing a finished result, there’s no room to play around. So painting miniatures without the express need to have a finished product. Just painting something because you feel like painting

or because you’re curious about this colour, or because you’re inspired by this movie you just saw. I think that’s so important. And I think that when people do that, they should definitely show it to everyone else because it shows that they have the freedom to do things that are not perfect. And you should as well. But that’s definitely about the social pressure to perform.

Chris

It’s internalised gatekeeping, isn’t it? It’s you’re gatekeeping yourself based on what you think others are expecting.

Tue

Yeah, and everything is about performance. And you want to show people that you can perform. It’s like if you go running and you’re going to this running event and you can either do the full marathon or you can do half a marathon. So if you go for the full marathon and you drop out halfway, you’re a failure. If you go for the half marathon and complete it, you’re a winner.

And effectively, it’s exactly the same thing that happened. But just the perception of completing and performing is so ingrained. But just painting stuff for the hell of it, just because you feel like painting it. Play with colours, even though you’re not painting stuff the right colours. If you want to paint a German tank green, do it.

I know that people will crucify you if you paint a grey Sherman, but if you think that it would be fun painting a grey Sherman, do it!

Chris

I’ve said this a lot and I still stand by it, that finishing is overrated. Modelling and painting, it’s not about finishing things and having them to look at in your cabinet. It’s about the act of doing it. And as long as you’re doing it, then you’re doing it right. The finished things are a byproduct. The joy comes from the act of sitting there doing it, not having done it.

Tue

It’s funny that you should say that. I think that every miniature that you start has a purpose. It’s got something that it needs to show you. And that purpose is sometimes finished before the miniature is. And that’s fine. You don’t need to finish miniatures in order to finish the experience.

But then you can’t show it to your mates and you can’t show it everyone.

Chris

And you can’t make money from it.

Tue
No, No.

Chris
All right. Well, thanks very much for joining us today. This has been a fantastic conversation and I hope people would have got a lot out of it. I think it creates as many questions as it answers, which is my favourite kind of chat. So thank you for joining us.

—————————————————————–

I think this blog has made a good pair with Jean’s interview on the last blog, and like all the best conversations, it really got me thinking about it long after recording

You can find out more about Tue on his facebook page or his Instagram. If you see him at a show I highly recommend you get chatting, he’s a wonderfully enthusiastic guy who really thinks deeply about this craft.

During the interview, Tue mentioned the Fairy by Weronika Galas. I want to read you what she posted when she posted the photos on Instagram, because I think its important to share a voice like Weronika’s:

Weronica Galas (Instagram @picky._.painter)

Why can’t I be pretty like other fairies?

As a young girl I didn’t fit into beauty standards, because of terrible skin changes I left the swimming team and absolutely quit on my favourite sport. All because I was too ashamed of my body. Popular culture did a trick on us, it shaped our perception of beauty and made many of us well… quit on things and ideas we love because of how we look.

As a little girl I learned from movies and tales that good and virtouous lady has to be incredibly bautiful. I also learned pretty fast that I don’t fit into those beauty standards, if I were to take the part in a tale I would play a foul witch, not a fair princess. I quickly learned to associate (or rather confuse) beauty with goodness.

For me body positivity is not only about feeling good in my natural skin. It is about making stories and images like this more common.

I’m really happy that my acne fairy received such a great responses at @kontrastpaintingfestival, to be honest I was feeling a little uneasy about this entry. Thank you all for the kind and warm words, you gave me courage to create more ❤️

Thank you to @ignisart.miniatures, this sculpt was a huge inspiration for me 🦋

I hope that message is one that reaches as many people in the hobby as possible

Before I go, I’d like to thank my patreon patrons:

the plastic scholar, Lee, Warren, Eddie, Frank, Robert, Stephen, Christian, Carlos, Paul, Bruce, Schaef, Pascal, Flip, James, John, Eric, Matt and Dennis.

If you would like to support the podcast and blog , please go to https://www.patreon.com/theModelPhilosopher

Don’t forget! You can listen to this interview on Podcasting apps, or at https://modelphilosopher.podbean.com/

That’s it for this one. Next time, I’ll be discussing realism and accuracy, with David Parker

Thanks for reading!

In this blog, I interview Jean André, the French model artist and dioramist.

Jean makes superb dioramas with often haunting and dreamlike scenes of solitary figures, usually women, in almost surreal environments, an element amplified by his mastery of colour.

Chris

Welcome to the Model Philosopher podcast, Jean Andre. Thank you for joining us.

Jean André

Thank you very much, Chris. It’s a pleasure to be here.

Chris

Now people might know you work on Instagram and Facebook as JBA diorama or Jean Bernard Andre or many of your other non the plume or some of them might even remember you from the old Armorama days as, I think, Nicholas Cabaret. We go back a bit there. Now for anyone that’s been living under a rock and isn’t looking at the kind of work they should be looking at, can you tell us what kind of work you make? I don’t wanna say models because I think it’s a bit different from that, but why don’t you describe it?

Jean

What I make is small vignettes or dioramas. I used to be doing some regular military dioramas, but I twisted them in many different ways. And since I’ve been moving house about seven years ago now, I don’t have any place anymore to put some big dioramas. So I’ve been setting up to do something more like shadow boxes, except that I don’t use any lights or anything. It’s just dioramas, flat dioramas that I can put under 3D frames. This is mostly what I’m doing. So the range of what I’m doing is quite wide because it can go from still military dioramas to completely out there stuff with some women usually. And that’s it really. It’s quite colourful, innovative in terms of using of colours and also some really weird balance. I try every time not to do the same thing as I’ve been doing before, even if I fail like everyone who tries to do that. But I’m doing my best about that.

Chris

It’s funny you said they’re flat dioramas because to me they’re like 3D paintings if you see what I mean. They’re kind of like fine art painting made into three dimensions.

Jean

Yes. I try indeed to do that and I also begin to cheat a bit with perspective and proportions. Just like if I was to model a room, which would be perhaps in a 1/35 scale, that would be about 10 cm long. When my frame just allows me to use only 4 cm, I will tend to compress. So for instance, if you’ve got a chair and It would be two centimeters by two centimeters or one inch by one inch. Now it’s one inch by five millimetres, you see. So I tend to increase a little bit things in order to gain a lot of space this way. But really the reason why I’m doing that is the challenge first, but it’s also a basic problem of lack of space;  stupid, but it’s the case.

Chris

It’s interesting because it’s almost like it’s put a set regular constraint on you that it has to fit this frame because you have a regular size of frame, right? It’s nearly always the same size.

Jean

Yes, except that now it’s new because I begin to work on my own frames. For instance, I’m working on a big diorama which will be about 45 centimeters long for 30 centimeters high. It will be also a sort of box, you know, but I will have to do my own box. So, no, because indeed, I was, you know, it was always the same size, it was 10 by 9 centimeters, or, 13 centimeters by 9, or 15 cm by 12. So it was always the same proportion. After a few years, it became a bit boring to be limited only because I’m a bad woodworker and I don’t like doing my own training.

But now I’ve been, you know, passing that stage and I’m now trying to do some things, you know. I want the frame to be adapted to my ideas and other ideas adapted to the frame. That’s quite new what I’m doing. I also have my step sister, who is actually a professional artist who gave me a few advices here and there and said, “the first thing you’ve got to do is to vary the size of your dioramas.” Because the eye, if one day you exhibit them here or there, People will not focus on one except or another one. So she said I must really, really vary a lot.

I believe she’s right.

Chris

I was thinking when you place a constraint on something, it forces you to be more creative in other ways sometimes. Because the ability to change the size is taken away. So you have to be more and more inventive, I would have thought, in using the space you’ve got.

Jean

I think you’re completely right. Indeed, you’re completely right. So now when I’ve got, you know, and begin to do a big diorama, and after three weeks I get bored; I take one of my frames and do the diorama. The last one was that, that was a girl in Roman ruins, and it was exactly that, you know, I got the frame and say, okay, I’m doing something on one week time. I did that one in one week time because I got the frame, the vague idea. So I put, you know, I put a A bit of paper, 9 cm by 13, I began to draw and my diorama was there. I agree with you, indeed. But it’s also laziness, in a way.

Chris

Working on a big one after working on the little ones must be like trying to build the Sagrada Familia. This sort of huge never -ending task you have to put together.

Jean

Yes indeed. And you know, it is also the problem with the people that are building some really very big dioramas. Last time I went at WME, so two years ago, I’ve been seeing a few big dioramas that just didn’t make any sense. Just for instance, a column of people just going in front of a locomotive which was, you know, visibly working, you know, things that just didn’t make any sense. And this is… So it’s a little bit off topic, but the difficulty with big dioramas is to stay focused on what you want to show and still be able to make a world work. So I will try to do more and more big dioramas in boxes because of that, because that’s a really big challenge, you know, when it comes to core management or just the idea, it’s more complicated, definitely.

Chris

I think quite often dioramas work best when you have a simple idea and you really focus on it. You eliminate anything that isn’t serving the idea that isn’t essential to putting the story across. So yeah, I can imagine that the bigger the diorama, the more risk you have of irrelevant elements, things you don’t really need. So I guess you have to make them work. You have to find a way for them to be part of it. And I guess that’s more difficult in a way.

Jean

Yes, but for years I’ve been saying that, indeed, that everything which is not strictly meaningful or useful for the drama, you’ve got to wipe out. But I’ve got a good friend who lives in Kyiv and she’s only into very, very tiny miniatures. I’m speaking to her a lot, but you know, lots of bad things are happening there, so it’s always nice to speak with one which is deep, deep inside it. And she also kind of influenced me when it comes to her idea. And she’s really good with doing some very, very tiny things with lots of details and so on. And actually, you know, it’s funny that we should mention colour later, because actually you can put a lot of things in a diorama that are only accessories. You can do that.

But when it comes to the colours, you just don’t have to make them shine the same way. You would, for instance, have 200 empty bottles on the diorama, but only 10 or 15 just at the middle of the diorama will shine and will show. And then, once the focus is just created, the people will be directed on the focus thanks to the light. Then the eye can stay and stay a lot longer on your scene because there are some details.

You know, it’s like the Belgian painter, Magritte. You know, when you look at his paintings, there’s no details. He’s not a real painter, you know. You just grab the idea, and then after you’ve got nothing else to see. You know, I’ve been to change my mind a little bit about that. So now, we tend to use on some things I’m doing, not all. More details, but using colour, you know. Then after, the eye can wonder and can look at it.

Chris

You’re someone that uses colour incredibly effectively in your work and you use a lot of strong colours as well. Is colour something you’ve always been conscious of in modelling?

Jean

That’s a good one. You know, what can I say about that? I think that my liking in colours came from the fact that I’ve been working with Games Workshop miniatures for a few years. And I really like that, you know, Games Workshop, they’ve got their blue space marines, their red, you know, their things that they sell. And at one point I didn’t want anymore, to…actually, it was quite a leftist idea, but I didn’t want to model something that was branded. I thought that my imagination was just mine and just too wide to get it centred on something that has got a big trademark on it. There was something that wasn’t me about that.

So I let that down and I came back to my first language, which was indeed military modelling, but I didn’t want to let down the colours, you know, so after that, whenever I had the chance to use colours, I was using them. But to be honest, it took me about 20 years to be more or less satisfied with the way I’m using colours in my job. It was quite a gradual move, you know. At first, I guess that I was using colours just like I would say, all the good diorama makers like, I won’t cite any name, but you know, all the good military diorama makers, no colour because they are good modellers.

But to try to put things in another way, it took me a lot of time. When you look at my first job on Armorama, for instance, my military job at the time, there’s a bit of work on the colours, but it’s still, you know, It was painful, you know, it’s not very, very good. For instance, I was already as low when the light comes from behind a person. That means that you may have a very, very light background and the person will be dark because I don’t have the word in English right now. But you know, doing some strong lighting effects. It took me, yeah, I’m 54 today. I guess I began to succeed that when I was about 45. It’s been 20 years trying to work on that. It’s quite a long process.

Chris

I think colour is something we don’t tend to think about. I can think of a lot of modelers who use it very well that I’ve never really heard talk about colour specifically. They just kind of do it. It’s like they have a natural understanding of it. But I think for a lot of us, it’s a language you have to learn. For me, it certainly is. And I feel quite at sea sometimes, you know, and unable to kind of get to grips with it. It’s a very tricky thing to learn.

Jean

Yes, indeed. And then it’s just not their priority, I guess, that lots of models want to reproduce, you know, historical reality. No, there was a history in scale in a way, you know, to tell their own historical stories, you know, because they also like telling stories, you know, it’s always, it’s often always the same, but they like to tell their own stories, but colours doesn’t come in the way, you know. If there are good modelers, scholars come. But it seldom happens.

Chris

Colour is something I think modelists usually even think about it in two ways. They either try not to think about it at all and just follow the instructions and use the colour call outs because they’re not really too interested in it. They’re more interested in the physical building of it and you know, in the form of it, which is fine. And then there are people who are very, very, I’m trying to think of a polite word …

Jean

Ha ha!

Chris

…trying to think of a good word, they’re extremely interested in colour accuracy. And so they don’t like to deviate from what they perceive to be the correct colour, which, you know, is in itself a bizarre idea because, you know, colour depends so much on the light, what time of day it is, what time of year it is and everything else.

But anyway, they just want the colour accuracy. So they don’t want to deviate. And I think quite often it’s that deviation used in an intelligent way, which makes colour interesting. If you see what I mean, used in a purposeful way rather than just sort of, you know, playing with itI think it’s more common in figure painting.it is a lot more common actually, it definitely is in figure painting than it is in scale modelling. to play with colour.

Jean

Yes, of course. Of course it’s true. But it’s always the same thing, you know. Also in figure modelling, you’ve got lots of, it’s another sport, you know, you’ve got some friends in figure modelling, but, you know, they tend to do the things that will work at shows, you know, because there’s lots of money in figure painting, you know, there’s lots of money going on, you’ve got lots of professional painters, and you’ve got, you know, so they tend to point at some sort of ideal. And in the same way, I think that lots of more creativity indeed when it comes to paint, but could be better, you know, it’s always the same tricks that they use, always the same colour scheme. It’s less square truth than it is with armor modelling, for instance, but there’s still something like that. But there’s some work on colours and creativity a lot.

I think a lot more actually if you’re painting. But you know, I would advise to every armour modeler, instead of just when they’re doing dioramas, of course, if it’s just to do a plane or a tank that we put on the shelf, no problem. You follow the instruction, you got the right RAL number and you apply the colour. It’s no problem. But when you’re doing dioramas,

Why shouldn’t they watch one of their favourite movies like Fury, Band of Brothers? They just make a screenshot of the tanks when they come through and they’re just using the little eye dropper and look at the colours on the tanks and try to do the same, for instance. They would see that the colours that they can see in Bonnet Brothers of their tanks are not the ones that they apply on their own tanks when they are doing dramas, for instance.

Chris

The interesting thing is actually both things you mentioned, Band of Brothers and I think Fury as well, use filters on the camera to desaturate the colour, to give it a more sort of documentary feel, particularly Band of Brothers, it’s quite a brown filter on the camera and there’s very few vibrant colours on it. So, you know, even the films they’re watching, they’re deliberately tweaking the colour for an effect. And yet no one would look at that and say, all the colours “are all wrong on that tanker.”

Jean

Yeah, you know, the Brothers indeed use some filters on something. But when you look at one of my preferred movies, you know, the Thin Red Line from Terrence Malick, and the use of the colour on the movie is really fantastic, you know, and there’s no filters. It just very well filmed. It just that some ambience and I do have to use this kind of tricks. But you know, the kind of things that Band of Brothers are using, you can have that in almost every series, you know, you can even from just a screenshot of the series to tell exactly the story, you know, when it’s about very dark blue or something, it’s going to be a police story, a little bit macabre or something. Well.

Chris

The Thin Red Line for me actually, is a really good example of how people could bring more vibrancy into their military modelling. Some of the colours in that really pop. That green grass on the hill when they’re assaulting the Japanese position at the top. It’s so green. It’s like emerald green.

Jean

Yes, you know, that’s a scene, you know, at one moment when you can see just a cargo ship in a lagoon, just this scene with just a big black smoke and the gray of the ship and the gray of the sea. Just, it just sticks in the end, you know, and you don’t have to use it. Actually, perhaps it’s this kind of image that I want to use to create, you know, some really strong images and using colours for that. And they don’t have to be purple or red or something, but just the world scheme, it has to work. It’s a way why you will remember one moment in the movie, it’s also because of the colour and the combination of different colours.

Chris

That’s a good example as well of why colour is important in your modeling, but it doesn’t have to be the thing that people notice because if it’s done well, it should, as you say with the diorama, it should support it without being obvious what it’s doing. It’s not the main focus, but it supports the focus of it.

Jean

Absolutely, exactly. We couldn’t say better.

Chris

How do you choose colour?

Jean

that’s quite simple, you know, I’m doing my own mixes of colours, you know, I don’t need to have a lot of paints and yet I just have them just right in front of me. I’ve been counting them just before I was waiting for you. I’ve got 140 little acrylic pots, mostly AK, but I’ve got also some, Scale 75. I don’t need those, but it’s actually such a pleasure, you know, I usually just empty completely my desk, look at my paints and say, what will I use? I usually just take about 10 and I stick to those 10. And at the end, perhaps I will change my mind, I just take another one. But it’s just a matter of looking at my paints and what could fit. I really like that. And after I’m doing my own mixes, but it helps me, to give the starting point.

Chris

Bit like you’re the dropper but with your eye instead, you’re looking at the bottles thinking yeah a bit of that there.

Jean

Absolutely. Because it’s important because, if you like, I’m just having a look at my blues, but you can see that, for instance, I’ve got some turquoise blues that won’t go well with some kind of reds or brown or something. I’ve got some more, you know, sky blue or something, which wouldn’t be so great with turquoise, which wouldn’t be so great with some sort of red and something. So it’s the kind of thing that I try to do: set up a starting base, you know, perhaps after adding other paints, better using perhaps seven or eight basic paints and after that working on that. But I need to have those 140 paint pots in front of me in order to help me at first. This is the way I’m working really.

Chris

It’s funny, I mix most of my colours too and I find the paints I’ve bought, that I go back to, are the really bright ones. They’re the ones not to mix really, but just, “I need to find a way to use that”. Or the ones I use from the bottle are the really bright ones because they’re very hard to mix like your turquoise, really good turquoise and stuff like that. It’s not impossible, but sometimes it’s easier just to pick a nice one and use it.

Jean

I totally agree with you. It’s really helpful. I mean, a lot of paints, it helps. It’s just, even if, of course, you always empty the same pot. I’ve got a few. I’ve got some, like everyone, I’ve got my preferred kind of paints, preferred shades. For instance, there’s one AK which is called, there is Tire Black, Tire like a Tire, on the printed back. It really replaces black for me most of the time. I never use black and never use white. I always use, you know, Tyre black or something, you know, those kind of base colours.

Chris

Mine’s on my desk. Rubber black.

Actually, they have a colour called tenebrous gray and I use that instead of black and that’s really nice. That’s got a sort of a reddish brownish grayish tone to it that’s much better instead of black.

Jean

But you know, why I shouldn’t advise anyone to use black? Because you know, there’s nothing blacker than black. Which means that when you work on the diorama, and at one point you will need something which will be darker. And you have been using your tenebrous gray or your tyre black. You can still in last resort, resort to black.

Chris

Yeah. when you need a bit of shadow on your other black. You need something darker.

Jean

And when black is not enough, you’ve got some black as black paint. You perhaps know that. I use some paint which is called the “Musou Black”, you know, which is something I found on Amazon, which is a kind of Chinese or Japanese, I think, paint. I’ve got it somewhere, you know, but it is some kind of black that just, doesn’t reflect anything. And it’s also so nice, it’s really good. It’s really so much blacker than everything that you can find for models. So I’m using that, you know, and it kind of helps me, especially, you know, when I’m doing my, my little frames.

Jean

you may notice that the frames themselves are really black compared to the scene that are inside because I’m using this kind of black on the outside because it helps all the false blacks to shine through in the scene. You see? But I would say when it comes to white or black, use them only on last resort. You’ve got some cream kind of paints for white, you know, some pale, you know, grimy geys from AK, it’s really good to use that, this kind of off white. Use off white, never white, because you might need it at one point. And just the same with antibiotics, you know, you don’t have to use antibiotics when you just have a cold, you wait for you to be really sick to take antibiotics. It’s exactly the same thing.

Chris

I always think of the scene in Spinal Tap where he’s talking about the amps going up to 11. And he says, you’re at 10, you’re at 10, you’re at 10, where do you go? And it’s like that with black and white, you know, you’re at 10, you know, and you don’t have a colour that goes to 11. So you have to, you have to turn it down to eight and then save 10 for when you really need something to pop.

Jean

Exactly, this is why you should always do it the most possible time you’re on mixers, you know. Never use them with the sky blue, use… Just tone them down, tone them down, because at one point you will need them. That’s a repeat for success.

Chris

I’ve spoken about this before on the Sprue Cutters Union, but another problem I see a lot with people, with colour is that they don’t think of colour in terms of a spectrum from the darkest through to the light. So when they paint something, it’s quite often missing either enough bottom end on the shadow or enough top end on the light. And it’s all in the kind of mid range and everything just sort of sinks and disappears and there’s no definition to anything.

Do you think that’s a common problem with military modelers particularly?

Jean

Yes, perhaps. I don’t know, but I’ve got the idea of when I was at WME, I believe that your job, as I prefer to understand, I was judging by the way, was the ones of Roger Hurkmans. Not always a fan of the subjects, but he’s really good, I believe, with dark colours. I believe he’s good with that, you know. He really managed to make something. We were talking about Band of Brothers or something, but he uses the shadows in an effective manner, way, I believe, yes.

Chris

He’s got quite a dark, desaturated kind of mood to everything he does. But he uses the highlights as well to make sure it doesn’t just sort of too grey. His darks are dark, aren’t they? And his lights are light.

Jean

Yeah, it works. But it works because it’s good. I thought he was really good. He was the only one really… I thought there was something there, you know. It was good.

Chris

It’s funny, he reminds me of Dutch Renaissance when they used to prime the canvas brown and you get that sort of dark effect. That kind of it comes through in his work as well. I don’t know whether there’s any influence there or whether it’s coincidence or what. But it always makes me think of that, he might have never looked at a Renaissance painting. Even at school.

Jean

because he was in Holland you know, and that made me feel something in Holland that was good.

This is the Dutch Effect.

Chris

I am in danger there of straying into the “Dutch school” and the “Norwegian school” of paint and all that modelling crap. I think Marijn van Gils as well uses light, shade and all the tones between really well and I do think that the best modelers I can think of, and the best diorama modelers are people who really understand that.

Jean

Yes, absolutely. Yes, yes, yes. Indeed, I forgot about Marijn Van Gils, but he’s here. Yeah, he’s so good at talking. Yes.he shows really a great way of choosing colour. It’s not that obvious because you also have to deal with about 1000 people, you know, miniature people. But, you know, the way is great is that when I use colour, it really feels that I’m really working on it and I’m working on the colour. But with him,

It looks both accidental, completely natural and completely excellent, you know. Know what I mean? It just manages to create some kind of reality, not warped reality, just reality. It works and uses plenty of colours. There’s something so natural about the way you use colours. I like that.

Chris

He doesn’t use it in a showy way, in a really obvious kind of “look at me, look at my colour” kind of way. It’s very subtle, but very effective.

Jean

Exactly, exactly. Yes, I totally agree with that. I was thinking about another modeler which one like, it is a Lebanese modeler, Imad Bouantoun. I think that first it is excellent, he’s very entertaining with this scene and something, but every time he tries to really use something that will pop when it comes to the colours. Maybe it will be some blue house. Maybe it will be some golden dome or something. But he really tried at one point to focus the attention on something else than just a nice military scene. And I really like him because he’s played something fresh, you know. He’s not murky or dark or something. He’s got something, a more brighter way of using colours than most military models that I know.

Chris

Now you use colour very effectively to focus the eye on what you want people to look at.

That’s something that’s been particularly true on the frames you’ve done. Is that something that’s developed over time? I mean, , the first time I can remember you really doing it was with the, I think it was Khalkhin Gol diorama, with the tank and with the cranes.

Jean

okay. Yeah. This one is the first successful diorama I did using colours. I still remember, I went to the shop, and I asked for the Russian green, but they gave me some terrible green, like olive drab. And they said, no, I use lime green. They said, no, I will take lime green.

Yes, I believe this is my first really successful work when it comes to lighting, but everything connected to lighting. Yes.

Chris

But that’s something you’ve continued to develop, isn’t it? I mean, you did one for the Models for Ukraine book as well with the bell from, was it Frankfurt church? I can’t remember. But that’s a very interesting one because the ground is almost black or at least it’s, you know, it’s ashes, dark ashes colour. But then there’s this huge pop in the middle. So you’re not afraid of a bit of contrast as well.

Jean

No, of course not. But the same thing, you know, I must have emptied my first pot of a tire black with that one, you know, because there’s no black at all in it. There’s only some very murky colours. But it was our thing, you know, there are plenty of stones everywhere. And just in the middle, you’ve got the tractor and the girl on it. And indeed, it was, this is what I was telling you, you know, you’re doing a rather big, it’s not big, but then you focus on the girl, and then on the tractor, and then on the rest, you know, it just makes some sort of pyramid, of how can I say it? You know, I don’t use the big words, but the right words, but you see what I mean. You focus on one thing and then on another thing, et cetera. Yes, I thought it was my best regular 3D diorama. It was that one. I’m very happy to have given you to your very successful book.

Chris

The fall of masonry as well, it goes back to what you were saying earlier about having some interest because although colour -wise, it’s almost like it’s been sunk completely almost out of sight because it’s so dark. Once you take your eye away from the brighter elements and you look at it, there is lots of things there to see. It’s not like you thought, well, that’s not really relevant. I’ll just kind of, you know, half ass it. I’ll just put a bit of gravel on and say that’s rubble or something you’ve put as much effort into every single part of that diorama as you did into the main focus, but it’s there for you to discover after you’ve discovered the main part.

Jean

Yes, of course, you know, I spot every centimeter square, every millimeter square of my dioramas to just make it sure it is perfect. There’s never something that I will, you know, that I will pass, you know, every time I try to spend the same amount of time on some hidden, they are never hidden. I never model anything hidden because this is really useless.

But something that can be noticeable by the person, I will model it the same precise way as the main focus. There’s no question about that. Because really, really, about creating those kinds of focuses, it’s almost at the two last hours of the work that the focus will really pop. Because before, it’s a good example that you’re around with the bell. Once you’ve got the scene completed, I noticed for instance that some of the stones were not dark enough. So you take your airbrush with a little bit of smoke kind of paint and you just put it back. And it’s just really the last time that you can really get the focus. Only the three last hours of building there you can see it created just at the last moment.

I will be doing a big diorama soon with some locomotives. I’ve got the eight of nine bits of locomotives ready in front of me. And the focus will be for the moment only because one of them is red and five of them are green and you’ve got two blues or something. So the focus will be on the red.

But right now I can tell you that there’s no focus on that one because it doesn’t shine enough. It will be when everything will be assembled, then I will take some Mr. Paint kind of, you know, lacquers that I will begin to just wash, make some bright washes on everything and there it will pop up. But it will take me another three weeks to work because it’s a big one. And it’s only in my mind that I know that I will be able to do, and it’s not visible right now on the scene. Because, yeah, it’s really complicated to do and you have to take risk at some point, you know.

Chris

It sounds like these elements are like colours themselves in that how they act and how effective they are is really only visible when they’re in amongst their colleagues, if you see what I mean, the other parts of it. So, you know, one colour might look one way on your palette, but put it next to another colour and it looks different. And with you, the trains, you put the red one next to another one, and then you’ll know how much brighter it needs to be or what you need to do to it.

Jean

Exactly. I totally agree with you. It’s not easy. It’s not easy, but it’s really, it’s a part of the fun, you know. When you begin to work with colours, it’s something that you’ve got to build parallel with the scene, you know. You’ve got to build your balance. So sometimes, you create your balance on a piece of paper, but when you begin to build the scene, you realize that your piece of paper is worth nothing. You can throw it into the bin. It doesn’t work. So you’ve got to improvise another kind of balance.

You’ve got to increase the size of the diorama and something, and then you begin to use colour. And then you might notice, for instance, that some detail which has to be, for instance, bright red will be in the left corner. It’s wrong. It will show everyone will have a look at that place. So it’s no good. You’ve got to tone down and then to clear up and then to tone down again and something. It’s endless.

And this is really part of the fun, you know, working on colour is just like working on contrast. And, it’s another sport in itself. And I will just add also two different things for diorama making that people don’t think I believe enough of. It’s the use of the metallic colours, which can make a difference, you know. That’s another dimension. Metallic, non -metallic. Of course, lots of painters now use, the figure painters use some non -metallic paints, well, way of painting. But I prefer still using metallics because that gives another dimension to the diorama. And as a fourth dimension of the diorama, it’s whether things will be glossy, matte, or semi -matte, or semi -gloss, or something. It’s something which is absolutely, absolutely essential.

Chris

Yeah, I mean, texture is something I don’t think people think about enough, but you can really add so much interest with just a difference, like you say, between gloss, semi -gloss and matte, even on the same model or the same figure or, you know.

Jean

Yes. Indeed. For instance, right now I’m working locomotives. So locomotives are painted usually in glossy colours, of course. But when they end up being broken, so you get lots of rust that is coming in. So actually, I’m looking at what are my locomotives right now. Honestly, the paint is glossy, except where the places where the rust just ran down, where the paint just went off, where I use some pigments that I sticked with a small brush, it is dead matte. And it really works because you’ve got this contrast between the gloss and the matte. It looks, yeah, I’m looking at it right now, it looks kind of realistic. I’m happy about the effect. Reasonably.

Chris

Yeah, there’s elements to what we do in pursuing realism, which aren’t obvious to the viewer, but the more than you add, the more effective it is. And I think it’s the same with the colour that, as I said earlier, it shouldn’t be massively obvious what you’re doing. But I mean, I think a lot of dioramas, colour is used very strongly to direct the gaze to one place or another or to create a mood, but I’m not sure people looking, other than saying, “that’s colourful”, they don’t really think too much about how you’ve done that with the colour, if you see what I mean. It’s not too obvious how you’ve done it, to the point where it’s a distraction.

Jean

Yes, yes, yes. Indeed, you’re right on that. Colour must never be a distraction because it can produce distraction, of course. If you put a red hand or a rooster or something in the middle of a diorama, people will look at it. It’s always the same thing. So no, it’s just a construction. You’ve got to think about the way you construct.

colour in the same way as you build it and you pile up elements over elements. It’s the same way. It’s just another way of thinking the same thing. I believe.

Chris

Are you procedural in the way you work that you plan things as you go and as you go? You think, right, well, that’s going to be that colour. And then the next thing is that colour and then tweak it a bit at the end. Or are you someone who paint something, weather it, and then thinks, well, I need a bit more colour, I’ll go back and add some paint, or, you know, I’ll add a bit. Is it something you constantly in flux or something that you plan out?

Jean

Well, at first, usually when I start a diorama, I’ve got the colour, I’ve got the plan, I’ve got everything ready in my head. The problem is that the image in my head is usually blurry, you know, it’s not very precise. So I know that I will need a bit of red, you know, something. And then of course, when I actually it happens like an evidence when I begin to work on it and I know that this I must use this colour and this element after that, that colour.

And at the end, you know, I think that that was my goal for years, and now I’m happy because I actually managed to do that. Is that the thing I have in my head will happen in the diorama, exactly the same colours, everything, you know, and you can use some app on your phone just to draw a scene that you’ve got in your head, you know, make a basic plan, but you can’t do the same with the colour. The colour, it stays in your head.

And it has to stay in your head till the end, you know? So that’s it.

Chris

But colours in your head a bit like trying to grab smoke, aren’t they? It’s really hard to kind of until you put it on, until you start playing around with it, it’s hard to fully grasp it.

Jean

Yeah, but it’s funny, but sometimes it’s just only the colours and the scene comes after. I’ve been doing a spirit diorama, which is located in Thailand, you know, with some Buddha head in the water. This wasn’t just colours at the beginning. I just wanted to create, you know, same kind of lighting effect that you may have in Apocalypse Now, for instance, you know, there’s, you know, the sun down on the rice fields or something, this colour. I must do something with those colours. So of course, the rest came after that. But yeah, more and more, just colour scheme. I want to work on some kind of colours. When it’s been a long time that I did not work with blue, I want to work with blue. And blue is not, it’s just colour, I believe, to work. I prefer working on greens. Greens work well with some.

Chris

Yeah, I like, I like greens. There’s a lot of, there’s a lot of room in green to, you know, to change it. It’s, it’s much harder with red or blue. Well, I suppose it’s better with secondary colours, but particularly with green, you can add a little red or you can make it more blue, more yellow. And there’s so many different ways you can play with green. It makes me laugh when people say that they don’t like doing allied World War II tanks because they’re all green. So green is the best colour to play.

Jean

It’s really funny because with green, you know, you can put some shadows in green and do highs in yellow, pure yellow, and people will think it’s green. While when you want to do some kind of sunny, late evening effect on some blue, it’s really more complicated because if you just spray some yellow, it will look a little bit green or something. It’s complicated, you know. I’m currently working on an effect like that.

Blue is complicated to work with, if you want to create some interesting lighting effects. Red you can work quite well with, but blue is complicated. I always thought so.

Chris

The biggest problem with red is making it lighter. You can’t really, you maybe add a bit of yellow, but you know, you can’t ever put white in red. So I always find it difficult with red to go lighter without just using another pure red.

Jean

No, very tough. When it comes to get lighter with red, I use orange and yellow quite clearly. And when I’ve got, you know, I’ve got really my strong point here, I’ve got some extra paints. I’ve got my luminous red from Mr. Paint, which is some kind of fluorescent red, which is very good to make some very high highlights. I’ve got those kind of, you know, just like black and white.

The fluorescent paints are the death star of modelling.

Chris

The nuclear option. The big red button that you sometimes have to push.

Jean

Exactly. So yes, actually with red, I’m using lots of oranges and yellows, and especially some inks, you know, the transparent inks, Alclad does them, Mr. Paint does them, and they’re really good. You thin them, you know, you’ve got to really thin them because you can lead to catastrophes. And you just, you know, wash a bit over with your with the airbrush and it really shines, you know, it will work really.

Chris

Do you think people are afraid of a bit of colour in modeling?

Jean

I just think it’s not their priority. Afraid? No. Why should it be? I don’t know. Of course, it’s really, you know, if you are doing, I don’t know, some really complicated camo, you know, like, I don’t know, late war, World War II, German. Using some lighting effects on something like that is really more difficult than to create some lighting effects on a Sherman. The more you’ve got some details, like sandbags on the tank or something, the more it’s difficult. Of course, it’s another challenge. It’s lots of dimensions to take into consideration. So I perfectly understand why they just don’t want to get really too much bored with that. It’s a lot more work and you risk ruining your scene. But you know, I’m using lots of resin with my dioramas [clear resin in water dioramas]. So I’ve been ruining more than one diorama in my entire life, which means that now I take all the risk because I know what it is to ruin months of work. Why perhaps regular diorama makers wouldn’t take the risk. But I’m taking it because the whole idea of my dioramas is to take risks using chemicals. So that’s it.

Chris

It’s quite funny, I hear it quite a lot all the time. People get to a stage on their model and they’re afraid to go further because they’re worried about ruining it. And I never really understood it because you could just build another one.

Jean

Yeah, you build another one. And at the end, I prefer one very good diorama, that nine which are not good, which take too much place in my home.

Chris

Do you think… something that’s occurred to me and I’m probably going to get in trouble with a lot of listeners for this. So I’m going to encourage you to get in trouble with them as well. Sometimes I feel sometimes I feel with figure painters. The sort of the shock of the effect or the dramatism of the effect is more important to them than the purpose of the effect. I see colour and light used really well by figure painters, but without a definite purpose. It’s about the technique, not the result, if you see what I mean.

Jean

Yes, really, figure painters sometimes make me think of those guitarists, you know, who just play endless solos. No, it’s stupid. You know, the drummers, you know, one half an hour during break and they show their abilities. But, you know, I strongly believe because I begin to know a bit more of that, the figure painters, there’s just too much money for the sake of the hobby. The famous painters, they sell their painted figures. They need to win shows. So of course, they will display. But also, I will also say that the professional painters I know, because I know at least one, is working on two kinds because he’s really passionate. So, he’s got the stuff that he will just put on at shows to win medals and just to be able after that to sell his own stuff. And he’s got also his own scenes, the things that he’s doing for himself, for his enjoyment. But there’s also all the part of the job he does, you know, to say, “I’m the best”.  It’s a real game, which one is the biggest one, you know?

Chris

It just sometimes feels that they’re technically brilliant, but there’s no real emotion to it.

Jean

No, it’s not their priority. Their priority is to win shows.

Chris

Like you say, as well, perhaps for customers: to demonstrate their technique and their ability.

Jean

Yeah, completely. I was about to say that there’s not much more art in figure painting than there is in genre painting as a world. I’m not sure. Because, you know, last time when I went at WME two years ago, I was really astonished by some of the stuff which I found which was very, very creative.

I honestly saw very, very little military genres that were anything like creative. But in the figure department, I saw perhaps a dozen of pieces that are still sticking in my head. I thought there was invention, there was creation. There was really something about them. Something which was the purpose was to do something which was beautiful, something a little bit magic. And I like that, you know. Perhaps this is also in my mind. When I’m doing dioramas, I want to do something a little bit magic. And they managed to do so.

Chris

I hate to say it, but I think, although a lot of people listening will say, well, so what? It’s not supposed to have any, but I think a lot of the dioramas, the military modelling, is lacking that magic. It’s lacking that surprise element as well. It’s, you know, I mean, it’s very, very well done, but it’s just that extra thing. It’s not there.

Jean

This is why the really best, I could rate the Per Olav for instance, or Marijn Van Gils that we’re telling about. Those ones areI think that this is latest or second to last. He’s been doing something with a whale and a boat or something. And he put this thing.

Chris
Per Olav Lund

Jean

He put the fishes inside the sea, you know, he did it. I thought it was, well, not very realistic, but I thought that it really brought something as a world to do. You know, it was, at first, it was not so obvious that he should have done that. But on second thought, I thought it was quite brilliant because it managed to make something that you would proudly put in a cabinet of curiosities, you know.

Curious Taste Cabinet. Something like a 19th century piece of art that you would be putting on the… I thought it was kind of brilliant in this way.

Chris

Although it wasn’t realistic, for me it was almost literary. It’s almost like the image you would get in your head reading a page of Moby Dick or something. That it’s not, you know, like a photograph. It’s more like, well, or even a copper plate in a book, you know, an etching in a book of that scene. Like you say, it did look, there was something very 19th century about the style of it, but at the same time it’s fantastic. Really well done.

Jean

Yes, I thought it was one of his best, actually. I believe it’s my preferred work. I hope to see it next at SMC, next October.

Chris

It’s strange, but it’s the same with yours. I find the further people move away from military things, the more interesting they become. But I don’t mean like doing cars and things or tractors, but, you know, in sort of. Well, like all my favourite ones of yours, I mean, obviously, you know, very well that I like the womb and I like the ships you did, but the women you do in these scenes with the one reaching out for the animal in the museum or the sort of animal analogue, should I say?

And the one with she’s holding the planet and stuff like that, these are the ones that really grabbed me. They’re the ones I find really original and really interesting.

Jean

thank you. I also think so. I’ve been developing an interest for locomotives for about two years. I’m doing locomotives too, because they are funny and I can use colours with them because they are red, blue, green and so on. You know, I started to do the reason why I’m doing that, you know, is that when I was about 20, I was doing some military dioramas, but I was living a life that didn’t go well with that. For instance, I was working as a rock journalist for a very left -wing magazine. Can you imagine? Yes, I’m working for a left -wing magazine. I’m building little panzers. Cool. It wouldn’t go with it.

You know, there was a contradiction into my own head about that. And then there was also a flash when I heard that Coppola didn’t make Apocalypse Now for the Vietnam War. He didn’t care about it. He did it because he got some problems with his wife or something. I thought it was absolutely brilliant because, you know, most genre makers, they are put, they are [making] their own bit of history. No, me, I put my own history in history. And this is the reason why, you know, I’ve been using some kind of, you know, some decor that everyone could relate to. For instance, I like Edwardian era. It’s my preferred era when it comes to architecture or everything. I’m a bit a fan of that era. But I will put the own thing that I got in my mind in those kind of decor, you know. It’s the same thing, you know, you’ve got some scene, could be logical but for me which has a meaning, and this is because at one point I wanted to have some meaning which was on my own, my own meanings in my diorama. This is why I moved but I could also yes also doing military dioramas in this way all depends in the way you organize the things.

Chris

It must be creatively though incredibly liberating to give up on kits and things like that. Just to start from a blank slate.

Jean

Yes. yes. Thanks to printing. It liberated me really. No, seriously. I’ve got plenty of kits behind me that I will probably never build.

Chris

Same.

Jean

Yeah, I’ve got a big number. Yes, it is liberating. You know, I want to build locomotives. I can build locomotives on my own, especially with boats. Especially with boats. With boats, you know, for instance, my earlier boat, it took me about three or four months just to build everything.

Now… First, I can even do it at my job if I’m pretty bored. And I can model a boat or something in less than one month. So I’ve been, you know, sparing time a lot by doing that. It’s really liberating, yes. And it’s also, you know, I don’t have any life enough to turn the barrels of the guns, for instance. Now with 3D printing, you just get that and there’s no problem with that. And I really like that. Yes, it’s liberating.

I can do whatever I want. No problem. I can model virtually anything.

Chris

I do find quite often when I look at this big wall of kits behind me, I mean, I like the subjects, but I go to, on the rare occasion I’ve actually got in a place to start something new, which is very rare because usually I overlap them so much, I’ve never got a clean slate, but I just look at them and think, “I can’t really think of anything interesting to do with that”, but I’ve got lots of ideas in my head which don’t involve a kit, which I am really keen to do.

Jean

Actually, I also thought, you know, I stopped building kits a long time ago, but every now and then I like taking a kit. For instance, I’ve been doing my Zero diorama of just a Zero ditched in the sea. It was really a pleasure to take a Tamiya kit, which was excellent. You know, I got the PE kit, I got everything. I’ve been doing models, you know, it’s just like a no brainer. It fits. Contrary to the stuff that you model yourself, it fits. And it was quite interesting. But now even when I use, for instance, I will have another diorama with a plane on it. I’ve been using a Soviet P02. And the engine is apparent on this plane. So, I’ve been remodeling it in 3D. And also I’m very happy to have been able to model that. You know the wings, when they are pierced by bullets, they’re just shattered with the cloth.

just going here and there and I’ve been able to model that. So I’m very happy to both mix my own work with the ICM kit.

Chris

Impressive, doing canvas.

Why do you think we make models? What is it about making these little things which appeals to us?

Jean

I don’t know if I’m right, but I think that for a lot of boys, you know, it’s when we are playing with our little plastic soldiers when we were kids, and we keep on doing that. In a way, it’s that. I believe that for a lot of men doing dioramas, it’s this way. And this is also because they really like history, and they want to create history with their hands on something that will be relevant to them. They want, you know, to have something, just like a screenshot of Band of Brothers, permanently in front of them, you know. I believe it’s that, it’s just a mix between their kids’ games and the fact that they like history so much that they want to have a trace of it in front of them. I believe it’s that. I don’t believe I’m better or different in this way. It’s just I’ve been working, but that’s it.

Chris

Yeah, that’s something I really want to get across a lot with this show, because I’ve been accused of being pretentious during the blog and this podcast. But I’m not saying that the way we talk about it or the things we talk about are better than someone who opens an Airfix kit, builds it, puts it on the shelf, does the next one. It’s just different. And I just wanted somewhere for people to talk about these things.

Jean

Yeah, but you know, it’s a bit like in the Bible, you know, it is saying to those that was given few, few will be asked for them. But if they ask for a lot, we’d be asking even more for them. That means that for me, the diorama, there are small work involved into doing the diorama that if you just build a tank or a plane and put on the shelf, it’s more work. And then you’ve got to just get beyond that.

I think this is a bit the way, you know, I’ve been, I believe, choosing the most difficult way of doing things because I, not only I’ve been models, but I also, you know, combine them with other things, other techniques in order to create scenes, which is, I believe, the most complicated thing you can do with models. But I want to do more than that, you know. It’s a bit that’s my way of thinking. But, you know, people that are building tanks to put on their shelves, it is stupid to ask them to reconsider their view on painting and accuracies. No, just a different sport completely.

Chris

Yeah, that’s not their hobby.

Jean

The hobby is to have a collection of miniature historical mechanical items and that’s a free defined hobby.

Chris

Are you trying to say something with the things you model or is it just, you get these images in your head and you want to make them.

Jean

I try to say things to myself. I’ve got the luck that some people like my dioramas, but if there wasn’t my website or social media, I would do the same things. No, I don’t try to say anything. There’s no politics in my dioramas, for instance. I don’t think there are. No, I don’t think there are. I should think about it more, as there are, but it’s not really conscious. My dioramas are a complete expression of myself. So since I’m rather politicized, even though I’m less mouthy than some about that,

I suppose that it can be sometimes seen through, but not really, I think.

Chris

All right, well thank you very much Jean

But thank you very much to you, Chris. It’s been a pleasure.

________________________________________________________

Thats it for this blog. Next time, I will be talking to Tue Kaae to get the colour perspective of a figure painter.

In the meantime, don’t forget to follow my Sponsor, Scale Model Challenge. You can find details of the show, the competition, the venue, and more at https://www.scalemodelchallenge.com/
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This week, my guest is Ivan Cocker.

Ivan has a highly informed view on history, as keeper of models at the Malta Maritime Museum for Heritage Malta, and as a world renowned modeller in his own right with a long history of award-winning models and some seminal pieces that were a big influence on me as a returner to the hobby on the pages of military modelling magazine, and at Euromilitaire.

He is also a reenactor of several periods including medieval and Napoleonic, and head ordnance judge at scale model challenge

We talked about the relationship between history and modelling, historical accuracy, historiography, and much more…

Chris Meddings

Ivan, welcome to the Model Philosopher. A lot of people will, I should hope, recognise you from your contribution to modelling over many years, especially in dioramas and armour. I remember particularly covers of articles in military modelling and all over the place. But you’re also a committed historian. You work in history and museums and you’re a re -enactor as well. Can you tell us about your connection with history?

Ivan Cocker

Thank you so much Chris for the invitation. I’m humbled with such an intro.

History is a passion for me. So… Could be where I come from, because Malta is practically every stone is a historical artifact. So, I grew up like that.

Chris

The island’s saturated in history, isn’t it?

Ivan

Yes, sometimes it’s too much. It’s too much. And after a period, I ended up working in history as well.  work in a museum, so, in a way, I’m now connected. And yes, I’m also a reenactor. And reenactment taught me a lot.

Honestly, I entered reenactment to cut out from modelling in a way. To make it more fun or a little bit more relaxed. But it ended up different because it taught me a lot. It’s something totally different, when you wear the things and you try to mimic what others went through and the past, you start to understand more.

Chris

Well, they call it living history, don’t they?

Ivan

Exactly. It is playing soldiers that’s true, but when you start living the past, you start understanding more, even what a soldier felt sometimes. We used to do long hours marching for example, you understand the fatigue, even taking care of weapons and the weight of things. For example, I used to do Napoleonic and medieval. So both things are different, two different academics in a way. You totally start understanding even when you see model figures, what’s good or wrong in a way. Even how they wore things.

Chris

But also, it’s your job, right?

Ivan

Yes, I’m a Keeper of Models. It’s a very interesting job. In a way, I take care of the national model collection. And it’s quite a selective thing, we have models from 17th and 18th century. So, part of my job is to study those models and conserve them and take care of their conservation.

And obviously when the curatorial team will come up with new ideas and especially for this place and heritage interpretation or new sources, new models and dioramas come in play. So, we use a lot models and dioramas to disseminate new information and try to reach out to people with our sources. So sometimes it’s not only that you write papers, or you write books. Dioramas and models are still quite an effective tool in museums.

Chris

Why do you think they’re still effective in this age of kind of VR and interactive displays?

Ivan

VR and AR is quite good in a way, it’s something very innovative, but what’s different is at the moment technology as it is, VR and AR, allows you at 15 minutes to view. or else your mind [it] will be too much and what is different is you’re seeing a video or you’re entering a rendered virtual world.

A model is a tactile thing. You’re seeing a 3D object in front of you. There’s more connection. And what I have found, is that models can help out. Mind you, I don’t see one as better than the other. People say models and dioramas are dying out from museums, for example. I don’t really agree with that. I think the good thing about a diorama or a model in a museum, for example, in a showcase, is that you’re allowed to stay there, watch it as long as you want, check out what details you want. They can communicate to a young person and to an old person, and there’s no difference in a way. So I think there needs to be a balance in between. One is not killing the other. I don’t think so.

Chris

Do you think there’s a perspective that models can bring as well, with a big diorama, that you don’t just get the sort of… experience at a close level of one person on, say, a battlefield or in an area, but also the topography, the foliage, villages, towns, other people, everything else.

Ivan

When you’re doing historical dioramas for a museum, it’s totally a different concept than… [what we modellers do]. You’re not that free like we are, doing model making at home. You have documentation, you have to abide by that, but you find gaps. You find gaps. And so, the first thing, that you go through: is you collect sources. Let’s say if it’s a battlefield or a particular battle, you try to get sources from both sides. Sometimes it’s difficult, but it’s ideal to get from both sides because historians are biased. So sometimes you get sources that are totally, totally keeping what they wanted to tell in a way. You try to combine that. You also consult archaeological finds when you get them, because through archaeology today, and especially with new technology, you can get even the weather, the terrain, anything. The sky is the limit today, what you can get with all these things. But still, when you collect all these things, the job is to create a storyline. From there you get a storyboard, like a movie in a way. And yes, artistic license still is important, a factor, because although everything is historical, you still have to balance things, especially to give the proper story.

Chris

You’re used to a concept of history that’s more based in sort of an academic idea of history, where you see things a lot more in context. Do you think modellers are maybe too specialized in their knowledge of history or their concept of history, say based around a single vehicle or single army?

Ivan

I still think history can play a good part. So unfortunately, sometimes I notice that a good amount of modellers, because of time, or because they lack to ability to find things, don’t consult historical sources. And nowadays you can pretty find anything, or you can talk to people over social media. You can connect with historians today, with experts. So sometimes I’m a little biased on this, honestly. I’m a little biased. So I feel that sometimes they need to put a little bit more effort in, but it again depends on taste and what the modellers would like to find.

On the other hand, maybe there are modellers who don’t like to read or don’t like to search, but I still find that modellers need to keep their eyes open, even look at pictures and original photos, for example. You can notice many things. You can really, really go through, scrutinize and explore a photo, and basically you learn as well, you really learn.

Chris

I think it’s not everyone’s aim to be historically accurate or to tell history. Some people just want to build a model. But there are people who say that they build models to “honour history”. And I think if you’re saying you honour history, I don’t actually know what that means. But if you’re saying that you’re doing something to teach history, there’s a lot of modellers use it as a kind of a fig leaf for why they build the things they build. I kind of feel like they don’t actually put much history in it. It’s just like, “well, there was a tank that looked like that. So that’s history”. If you see what I mean.

Ivan

It’s quite a strong thing. Let’s say, honouring history sometimes it’s… It depends. I think it depends from a modeller point of view. It really depends. What’s the aim of what he’s trying to fulfil? A modeller needs to really go through that his connecting to a viewer.

I don’t like to say it. It is an art. It is a visual art. Or let’s say visual communication, because there’s another can of worms that can get out of hand. So it is a visual art. And you know where I stand on this. I’m quite artistic in a way.

Chris

Well, it’s definitely a craft at least, maybe an art, but definitely a craft.

Ivan

It is a visual communication tool. So, and I think in that aspect, but it’s always depends, depends what one needs to do. For example, myself, once I came up with this idea, I found that in 1945, Czechoslovakia and Prague, there was an uprising, for example, and I was intrigued with the story. And, I came up with this diorama.

I found this, it was, a camp that was originally liberated by the Soviets. But my idea, what I came up with was I created this particular Hetzer, that the insurgent captured. And I don’t know if you remember it, Chris, I think you might remember this one.

Chris

of course I do, yeah.

Ivan

and I created this idea of this Hetzer opening up this gate of this particular camp and the people like rising against the… the Nazis that were there. I remember once I posted this on Facebook and I was practically being pinpointed by, especially people from the East that told me, “No, no, no, that’s not really historical accurate. This is not what happened.” Yes, I’m aware about that, but my intention was a little bit different. It was a little bit of an artistic thing, based on a historical thing. But my storyline was ‘rage against the machine’ in a way, that the idea, the people uprising against it. At that time, I remember the news was filled with the uprising in North Africa, especially in Libya at that time. So these ideas were on my mind with people rising up against dictators and these things. So, this is something you cannot end up with, with model making. You come up with a different story, different concept. You’re not really rewriting history, but you’re giving a communication thing, a message in a way. And maybe that’s something modellers can really look into.

Chris

I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately and it’s quite hard to articulate because it sounds heretical as soon as you say it. But I think sometimes modellers obsess too much about the details of history and not about the spirit of history. So, in your case, that diorama represented the spirit of the people rising up to liberate themselves and their countrymen, particularly in the camp. And maybe the actual event didn’t happen, of the Hetzer going through the gate, but the uprising did and that emotion and that movement of people in Czechoslovakia wanting to liberate themselves definitely happened. So, it’s historically truthful, but not historically accurate. If you see what I mean.

Ivan

Exactly, exactly.

Chris

But I think it’s important to get that kind of spirit of history into the things we do, the emotion of it, because the emotion’s quite often the thing that’s missing in models.

Ivan

I think so. There are two particular types of model makers; There are those that go into the technical thing and they enjoy building up the model and put all the details and be very, very, very, very accurate. So I think for them, if we’re speaking about machines, that will be the main factor that they are seeing.

And there are others that can be a little bit also artistic in a way, but try to convey a message or try to come up with some ideas as well, or play out with colours. I don’t always see it that you’re trying to downgrade history or trying to come up with rewriting history.

This is another factor: you can give certain messages or do some propaganda with it or something like that. This can happen with books and anything. So, as I say, model making is a medium.

On the opposite side, I think that’s something we don’t sometimes look at. We have to see what other people think when they see our models.

We like to say we build models for ourselves. It’s true. We built them for ourselves. But we want to show them as well.

Chris

If you just do it for yourself, why not just finish it, put it in a box and put it away somewhere? If you’re showing it, it’s because you want people to see it and then that’s the communication.

Ivan

That’s true. This is quite a conflict for me because in my line of work, sometimes I have to be quite strict in a way, because model making in museums is quite a compromised thing. You can be free in a way, but sometimes you have to be quite selective.

So recently in my studies, I made a case study of a particular model that was in the Imperial War Museum. [As part of the IWM London’s Holocaust Exhibition, by Gerry Judah ] Sadly, recently I heard they took it off. It was about the Holocaust, it was the Auschwitz camp. It was a 1/72 model. Large, I think about four, six meters, something like that. I thought that was huge. But what was impressive is we all know it’s a sad story, quite a horror story in a way.

But the model makers came up with a brilliant idea. They, and the designer of that exhibition, they placed it in a room that was dark and they created a grey diorama that was almost white, no colour but they created something that was quite, quite impressive in a way.

Going back to model making, the hobby of model making. If you do something like that in a competition, for example, it is accepted or not. I feel we need to open up to someone coming up with this idea and be innovative in a way. Sometimes I feel we need to think a little bit out of the box. Although things are historically accurate, for example, let’s say. The Auschwitz diorama was very historically accurate. I managed to connect with the model maker who made it and they told me they studied photos of the period to create the proper place and the proper buildings and even the amount of people they inserted. So it was quite a well -sourced documented diorama.

But on the other hand, they were artistic as well.

Chris

I think by removing colour, kind of subconsciously, you think of black and white photos and black and white photos we associate with the real, because they’re documentary, they’re not, you know, we’re used to seeing black and white photos of the war. So in a sense, it made it more realistic on a subconscious level by taking the colour out.

Ivan

I think so. And if you continue on this concept, what Spielberg made in Schindler’s List as well. So I think sometimes, yes, playing with colours is another topic that we can go through.

Chris

Yeah, that’s a whole episode on its own.

Ivan

Yes, yes, yes. And I did an experiment once. That old Euro military days. That was quite a shock, I remember, the guys judging it.

Chris

I remember. Yeah. Was it a BT5 or a BT7? A Spanish Civil War diorama, wasn’t it?

Yeah, that caused, I would be in danger of going off the subject, but I’m gonna stick with it anyway. That caused quite a stir when you posted it online as well. I’m Missing-Links, I think. A lot of people reacted quite, I wouldn’t say negatively, but they didn’t get it. They didn’t like it and they didn’t get it.

Ivan

Yes, that’s true. Some thought it was black and white from Photoshop in a way. Others had some negative things about the Spanish War, I know it is a harsh topic to discuss as well. So that’s true.

Chris

Especially in Spain. Well, that brings us back to history. I mean, the sort of the perception of history in Spain is, it’s a very, it’s a living thing, if you see what I mean. There’s constant sort of push, pull and debate in Spain about the Civil War.

Do you think that models sometimes represent that, from a historiography point of view? Since you know, you’re an academic, you know this stuff very well. Do you find that models are often indicative of the attitude of the time towards what they’re depicting? Do you think that changes over time?

Ivan

Yes! That is true, that is true. Going back to my work, when I go through, especially our national collection, and especially see old models, and you have to understand why they were built, and who built them. So, and I think even today, that continues, subconsciously, subconsciously, even us modellers, sometimes we don’t realize we’re conditioned to ideas and concepts that would go through could be inspirational. I think it is an academic topic to go into this more than that and it’s quite philosophical. I think model making is quite philosophical.

Chris

Yeah, well, that’s why this podcast exists! I mean, I think a lot of my generation and the previous, I mean, I’m late Gen X and I think early Gen X and the baby boomer generation. I think a lot of our models are very heavily influenced by the war films of the 50s, 60s and 70s rather than history. And I don’t think it’s necessarily a conscious thing, although people do often obviously try to make models based on movies, but they’re consciously making it about the movie model. But I think also subconsciously, our idea, particularly of World War II and World War I, is based on the cultural understandings of World War II and World War I in the West from the 50s, 60s, 70s. And actually, if you look at how history looks at those periods now, it’s a little bit different from how we think about it.

Ivan

Totally agree, totally agree. And this evening I noticed that even going through exhibitions around the world. You see, people of certain age are more inclined to certain topics. Youngsters today are moving out. They are moving out. It’s strange. This is something strange, because for example, people coming from the 50s, 60s, even myself, from the 70s, we’re still inclined to World War II or Cold War subjects.

The generation of today, they like, they are still seeing things that, historical things, let’s say, unfortunately, war. There is a war going on, so we are all aware that we’re seeing multiple things, but it seems they are not inclined to build those models. They go into the fantasy realm, or else try to be more futuristic. Then again, then I see from my kids, if they’re inclined to a particular video games, they sometimes inclined themselves to see, I remember, I remember some years ago, it was our model exhibition in Malta and I saw this grandfather with a young guy, a kid maybe 12, 14 year old and he was looking at all the tanks and was really picking up each tank one by one. “This is a Panzer I, this is a Panzer II.” and going through “King Tiger.” I said, “How come?” And I went to speak to them, and I said, “You’re a model maker?”, “No, I play World of Tanks.”

So that’s another thing. So in a way, it’s quite complex to say why generations are inclined to particular subjects and not. And maybe, what sometimes I miss and…why historical stuff are not getting fancied by the younger generation.

That’s quite a question nowadays.

Chris

I mean, culturally, we were raised on, you know, comedies like ‘Allo, Allo’ and movies like ‘Battle of the Bulge’ and stuff like that. So, you know, with parents or grandparents as well that were involved in World War Two. So we grew up in a culture that was, and I’ve said this last episode, so apologies to anyone who finds me repeating myself, that we grew up kind of saturated in World War Two culturally. But they’ve grown up with Avengers and Star Wars and sci -fi, well we had Star Wars obviously, but you know sci -fi and fantasy. more so culturally just because that was the fashion in movies and TV.

But like you say, I was one of the people when ‘World of Tanks’ came out, I hated it because of the, you know, the fantasy things it did to tanks as you go up the levels and so on. But it has had an effect that kids, my son played World of Tanks, he plays War Thunder now, it has had an effect that kids have got into that stuff and they know what it is.

So, if anything, I think it’s had more of an influence on them than modelling certainly has, in terms of historical interest.

Ivan

It’s true, it’s true. I totally agree with that.

We are two nerds, maybe. That’s maybe the proper word. We like details, we like to be realistic as much as possible. We are sometimes… I think crazy about the proper FS colour, RAL colour and then these things and could be we are putting off the new generation. They are not that strict as we used to be in model making, so we need to allow their creativity to come in and accept what is there, what they want to say to us. I think we need to accept that. Okay well we can discuss that.

If you want to build a realistic model it needs to go into a particular direction. But then again, if it’s their will to do something like that, I’m not against it, honestly. I’m not against it. I used to be, honestly. I think we go through that, but I’m mature enough that today I accept people to come up with any kind of ideas, honestly, as long as it’s pure model making and they are showing their skills. I think we should allow more.

Chris

I used to be a rivet counter, as you know. I got right down to where the welds are placed around a nut on the idler of a Churchill and so on, at which mark of Churchill produced when and all that. I used to be really into that stuff and I still am. I still like to find those details because you find the details, you can paint the details, right? You know, it’s part of the fun. But at the same time, I come to think that we obsess too much about the details and we spend more time worrying about the exact size and position of the driver’s hatch on a Tiger I than we do about what a Tiger I did and what happened to it. There’s too much about the engineering and not enough about the history in a lot of ways.

Ivan

That’s true, that’s true. On these ideas, reenactment taught me a lot. One thing is, for example, uniforms. Even in our units, for example, you don’t find one uniform identical to the other. Even colour, we don’t go to war, we try to take care of them because they cost us a lot of money, so we are quite restricted, but you still notice even we ordered this batch this month and in a year’s time another batch even from the same tailor you get different colours for example. I think we’re sometimes too strict. We need to allow more, to be more creative and think out of the box.

Chris

Do you think modelling has much of an impact outside modelling circles? How likely are non -modellers to learn something from our models?

Ivan

This is quite a good question. I think it has impact. It always has impact. As I said earlier, models are a visual communication tool. So, people are looking at the models. There are different… identities of viewers, how they look at things. So even someone who is not a modeller, so they can pick ideas, they can pick detail, and you can even teach. I’m going to do an academic thing, so I went through my research at work.

Chris

I mean this is your thesis, right?

Ivan

It was my thesis, in a way. It was my thesis. It was about dioramas being a didactic tool and if it’s still relevant today, yes it is. And from my research I came up with quite a concept. There is an academic that views visitors that come into a museum into different identities, and no one person is the same. And even that same person can change his perspective, how he’s looking at things.

And there’s another thing, models, from what I managed to find from my research, models have one particular… thing that we overlook. Models speak to different ages, to different people. There’s no particular language barrier. There’s no age barrier. So yes, it is an educational tool. So, in a way, we have to be aware what we’re doing and what we are subjecting in our models.

Maybe someone who’s hearing this, some people, some modellers say, “What we’re up to? What? So we’re not enjoying models? Or else we have to be aware what other people are saying about our models?” I don’t think that’s the idea. I think it’s more what I’m saying with my model. We have to be aware what I’m saying with my model. And no model is the same. We can all build the same model, that’s a good exercise, I think. We can build the same model with the same scheme and none of them will be the same

Chris

That’s something I used to think about a lot at art college, because I always wanted to make art that communicated. And all art does anyway, whether you want it to or not, but I was quite interested in the idea of how well it communicated, that it was up to me to do it in such a way that the viewer understood what I was trying to say. And I think it’s the same with models, that if you want someone to understand, what you’re saying with your model, it’s up to you to build it in such a way that it’s understandable. Which doesn’t mean that you have to want someone to understand it. You can just, if you want to just build it for yourself and show it and have people look at it and go, “that’s a nice model or people that know, you know, all those tracks are the perfect tracks for that period on that date” and what have you, that’s fine. But if you do want to say something with models, it is your responsibility to think about how you say it.

Ivan

Totally agree, Chris. Totally agree with this. And maybe something that’s only for dioramas to be storytellers. I tend not to agree with that. I think even a single model can say a lot.

That’s something I learned from museum practice. Traditionally a museum used to be a collection of artifacts and just building up a collection. Nowadays, there’s a different concept how we look into artifacts. Each artifact tells a story. It has to tell a story. Each artifact has a story. So I think it’s the same thing about a model. So as I said, it can be a technical one. It can be, as I have in our national collection, for example, dockyard models. And then that or models that we have, for example 17th century models that were built for the nautical school.

So, still, it has a story to tell, even the detail they put into, or the effort the bundle maker went into. So I think even nowadays…I remember some years ago we used to speak even styles about models. We used to say that’s the Spanish school, this is the Italian school. This model I used to remember, Nordic, Belgian, and any kind of schools coming up. And yes, I feel it was a school of thought. It was a school of thought.

Today, it has become worldwide almost united. It happens even in contests. I’m a head judge and I might come up with this big issue that happened especially last year, for example. And there was quite an argument. But it’s true that we have quite an identity nowadays that all models almost look the same. We can’t blame that.

Chris

We’re in danger of straying into another episode I’ve got planned that basically, modelling has homogenized the style. Yeah. I remember the first time I went to Shizuoka a few years ago now, you could still see the Japanese style, the Masahiro Doi style, the sort of no modulation and like. airbrush dust and stuff like this, but a lot of precision, a lot of careful colour separation and everything. But now when I go, I’m not sure whether, I think it’s because Mig has been spending a lot of time in Japan as well in magazines and things, but all the models there look like the models here now. And that’s kind of sad in a way.

Ivan

It’s true, it’s true. You get inspired, I guess. I guess you get, it’s easy. This is like traditional art as well. When new ideas come up, everyone starts following them. And honestly, now with social media and the internet, the world became quite a small pond in a way.

Chris

that they all look the same, you know?

Ivan

Even if a new style comes up it starts flowing and followers going through and then people start copying, this is copying in a way and then following up and that’s why many things become very very very united in a way.

For example, SMC is an international show nowadays, but sometimes you watch a selection and say you can’t spot this is a Japanese modeller or this is a Nordic modeller. And it is, it is. It is a good thing, in a way. I’m not against it, but it’s a way how it evolved. And it is evolving very, very, very fast.

Chris

Well, historically, put us back on subject. Historically, it always happened anyway. I mean, a big thing here in the UK in the 18th century was ‘Japonisme’ with the goods being bought from the newly reopened Japan where the ports have been forced open, were coming over wrapped in old Ukiyo-e sheets and things. Artists would unwrap them like Van Gogh and stuff and look at them and go, “wow, that’s amazing. I want to paint like that.” So, they do it.

But now with the internet, instead of that taking a decade to happen, it takes a week that something just goes whoop around the world as fast as you can see it.

Ivan

I used to remember you used to wait for a magazine or some big exhibition and someone come up with a new idea and then you spend the whole year trying to mimic what this guy tried to do or try to understand that so it changed it changed and I feel it’s a good thing in a way so it’s part of thing what I wish to maybe people push in is a little bit more of research and keep things that are… How can I say? Not play around with history because sometimes we need to keep in line what it should have been, especially model -wise. But then allow that bit of…art coming in. For example, I love, even when I go abroad, to go to see military art. I love it. I love it myself. I get a lot of inspiration out of that. And I don’t only see, for example, Neville and I follow a lot, for example, modern artists that keep realistic doing this kind. Keith Rocco, Don Troiani.

Maybe these two gentlemen are one of the guides, I think. And still, they are very, they have artistic license, but they are quite in line with historical subjects. For example, uniforms are quite, even the posture of the persons and the elements they go into. So, I think we need to look into these ideas.

And don’t forget that that can be realistic and still creative as well.

Chris

Do you think modelling is inherently linked to history? Do you think modelling and history are something that has to be kept together or do you think history is an optional part of modelling?

Ivan

I leave it the choice of the modeller, honestly. Look at how many Tiger Tanks there are. How many brands come up with Tiger Tanks for example. So I think there is a historical fact that we still…come up with that there’s still a connection. There’s still a connection. But on the other hand, it’s up to the modeller in a way. And I think that is his freedom where he needs to go to.

More than anything else.

And it depends what he’s inclined to, in a way. And what’s his perspective. Or else what’s the line here? There is always this argument how realistic is a model and how much I want to be so historically accurate.

Chris

Well, that brings me on to my next question, actually. You’re the head ordinance judge at Scale Model Challenge and you’ve been judging yourself there with Dioramas and Armour for a long time. We’ve judged together in the past there. Do you think historical accuracy is a valid criteria in judging scale models?

Ivan

It is. I cannot say it is not. It is. But…It’s a hard question. So I cannot penalize. You know how I think about model making. When I do my instructions to the judges, I always keep up with this motto: “Look at the good things of a model, rather than seeing the negative.” There is no perfect model. There’s no real, pure, historically accurate model. So, first look what the modeller wanted to convey, I think that’s the first thing I have to see. Obviously if there is something that is so inaccurate in history, that’s up to the judges to consult between them and see if this is a problem.

And I think that’s what makes, for example, the colour of the medal. That can benefit what was the colour of the medal in a way. But it depends. What is the story and what he wanted to say with this model. Actually, it can be an inaccuracy, who is the most accurate model maker? I don’t see anyone can be.

So, mind you, I always leave the judges free in these decisions. But, and there is an element in the criteria that historical accuracy is one of the things. But when in doubt of something, and this is something I learned from Shep Paine: Leave it to the benefit of the model maker. When in doubt and if it’s not so clear that this is an inaccuracy, why should you penalize for something that is very very minute? Not something that changed our history with this concept.

something I want to say as well. Being a head judge.

And thanks to Robert and Martin, we like to team up the best model makers that we can work with. And I think that’s something people need to understand when going into competitions. I know it’s another hot topic, and always dealt with and there’s always arguments about that. But the way we always try to work it out is to team up three different minds in each section. We always select master modellers, that’s something we like to push. And you try to combine different abilities, different ideas. So, from that concept, I think so far it always worked fine.

I think it was one of, I can’t boast about it, our successes in a way.

Chris

I think last year there was a really big controversy over the judging and I don’t want to get into that. I’m just bringing it up because that’s more or less the only time I can remember a big fuss like that over the judging at SMC, certainly in ordinance anyway. And I think that says a lot about the judging and about the team and about your’s and Martin’s organization because other competitions have this kind of a furore every year. And the fact it was so unusual at SMC is a really good sign.

Ivan

It happens, it happens because as we said there are different interpretations and we can come up with the story, it’s been on the net as well, so it came up with this idea because there was like a homogeneity of a certain style all over the AFV section which in fact, I cannot say it wasn’t. It’s true. It’s true. When you go through, you know, how you look at all the master section, especially it was because that was it, the master section. It was true that that was quite a very similar concept of style.

But when you start looking one by one, then you notice differences. Then you notice that they could be minute. These minor things. It is different than, let’s say, 20 years ago. 15 years ago. Yes, it was true. You had that what we used to call “the wow factor”. That was the particular model that come up with a boom, and it used to be standing out from the others. That’s true. But nowadays it changed. It changed. And I think it’s for the good because so many modellers today have reached the utmost of their skill. That every benchmark is very, very, very hard to see something that stands out from the other.

On the other hand, and here maybe I can pinpoint something. On the other hand, on the dioramas, I can point out a different concept. On the dioramas, we’re seeing a little bit of a different transition going through. On the dioramas, we’re seeing a lot of the same, a lack of stories.

And I feel that some that enter into that section have this philosophy. I think they think it’s I’m putting the model and surround it with a… Let’s say I put it more simply. I like this tank and I surround it with an ambience.

Chris

Well, we I was joking about this with a friend of mine. And basically, the dioramas seems to have solidified around “tank, building, figures”, where you have a building in the background, a tank in front of it and a couple of figures on the ground. And that’s, you know.

Ivan

Yes. Mind you, it might be and because there are certain rules in other competitions that dictate this. So I hate, I hate this, I hate this idea.

Chris

It’s very formulaic. Yeah.

Chris

I think actually it’s because of the popularity of a few modellers. And I don’t want to say who, because they might feel like I’m accusing them and I’m not. It’s just they’ve done it and they’ve done it very well. And others have said, I’ve had to do that as well. But they haven’t necessarily picked up on everything that was in the original, if you see what I mean. I am going to say one, actually. I’m going to say Roger Hurkmans, but there’s always something more going on in his, there’s all the figures, the way they’re interrelating with each other is the story. But people aren’t necessarily, they aren’t necessarily picking that up. They’re seeing the figures, the vehicle, the building, and they’re copying that, but they’re not copying everything. They’re missing the story.

Ivan

Exactly, that there is a body language, there is a connection.

Most probably, and this is another topic I think, a lot that go into dioramas, think that buying a stock figure is enough. But they don’t realize figures sometimes are a tool that tell a story. So you need to convert figures to tell your story. You need to restyle a little bit. Small conversions, they don’t really need to be… to create a good language between the connections. So just a tank officer inside a cupola standing there staring. But then if you put the binoculars in his eyes, it’s different. I think it’s already telling something, and this is quite a simple thing.

And I think this is what people going into the dioromas they’re not seeing. And they go into the skills of doing the best trees, best houses, best tanks, best groundwork. But there’s no connection. There’s no connection.

Chris

I think a good example from last year’s SMC, which also gets us back to stories, stories to history, was Peter Usher’s, it might have been from the year before actually, “Divine Intervention”. And he had a Sherman next to a building, but the Sherman in the building weren’t the story. The story was to the tank commander and the nun who climbed up the tank to point out Germans to him. And it was just the look between them or him looking down her finger to where she was pointing. That’s where the story was.

And also that comes from history. It comes from a story he found that may be apocryphal or something from a historical source. And by bringing that into his diorama, that’s how he created the story. So history can really help people find the story as well.

Ivan

That’s true. So that diorama was quite a learning curve in a way because it revealed something. Let’s go into the basic things. So it had the usual pointing figure. Those that ring the bell, we used to call them.

Chris

Yeah, but not the usual because she wasn’t German, haha.

Ivan

He came up with the concept that we have seen it. Not something new, as is the usual, pointing commander. So, but what? He was wise enough, Peter was quite wise. He came up with this story. And the first thing, once you see it, you say, “well, what’s the nun doing there?” So you go into in depth and it was quite a revelation, more than it was a direct storyline. You need it.

Someone needs a little bit of to explain you the real story but it makes you intrigued why?What’s the story behind it the scene? Let’s go into the historical fact; it is quite a fantasy thing. the story it is a historical subject, but it has a lot of fantasy in it. If we explain it a little bit better, this diorama, it was like a ghost. So, the storyline was narrated by this commander, they saw this nun and told them where the Germans are and where the artillery are. And originally it seems it was like a ghost. So it was real or not.

Chris

I think afterwards someone said “there’s no nunnery anywhere near here” or “there’s no nun, that nun doesn’t exist” or something, wasn’t it? So, yeah.

Ivan

Exactly. So, there was something behind it. In a way, it is thinking out of the box and it’s quite a fantastic subject in a way, but still it’s historical. So why not? Why not? People think about such ideas and does it need to be a real source in a way, but connect with the historical subject.

It’s like a historical movie. So. we see a lot of movies, even the recent Napoleon.

Chris

That’s got nothing to do with history. That’s the only film I’ve watched and afterwards felt like I knew less about the subject than I did before.

Ivan

I was a crew because I work in the movies as well. So, I knew what was coming up before everyone. But still, it’s the director’s vision in a way. So, all right. So, in a way, model making can be something similar, Chris. Why not? Why not in a way?

Chris

Well, I think also there’s an idea among model makers that history is an immutable fact. That if they’ve read a history, that’s the truth of it. And if you deviate from that, it’s not truthful. But history is kind of our best interpretation of things that happened in the past. It’s not actually 100 % accurate.

Ivan

That’s true. That’s true. When you consult sources, as I said before, even history books, many, many historians are biased. So that’s human nature. We cannot blame that. And even sources, original sources, and sometimes you have really to see in between the lines what’s in it. Even pictures. Sometimes we study original photos is it true they are accurate or not? Were they staged? There was a reason, if they were staged, so it is a hard topic for me, those that say “I try to be as realistic as possible”, I think.

It’s a tough bone to bite in a way. You cannot really be that realistic as much as possible. On the other way, being creative. I remember Chris, for example, I was amazed about your Diorama last year. I loved it, I loved it. I really loved it.

Chris

Thank you.

Ivan

You build up all those wrecks up to them, and convey all the figures coming up and then the last figure with the Ukrainian soldier with the white dove in his hand. So that was a very good message for example. Very good message. Maybe some see it as propaganda or political inclined. I don’t see it like that. It was really a message of peace in a way.

Chris

Well, politics in modelling is another subject that’s a favourite of mine. It was a political model, but I also think that people that say there is no politics in modelling, or there shouldn’t be politics in modelling are naive. I think that any creative endeavour is political in the same way that everything we do is political.

Ivan

There is politics in modelling, for sure there is politics. Not just political from historical point of view, I think even politics about styles and about fashions and about what I like and what I despise in a way.

Chris

Yeah, yeah. The ‘great weathering debate’ is the most political thing, ever.

Ivan

Exactly, let’s not go into that subject. But it is a factor to consider. And it is still part of our remit, in a way. It’s the modern world Everyone has his own way

Chris

Yeah, very much so.

Chris

All right. Is there anything I should have asked you that I haven’t?

Ivan

Hmm. Hmm. That’s a hard question.

Chris

Well, I’ve got an even harder one for you if you like. I’m gonna ask this to everyone. I asked it to John Rosengrant at the end of the last episode. I’m gonna be asking everyone from now on:

Why do you think we make models? What is it about the hobby that keeps us wanting to make these little miniature things?

Ivan

Oh, boy.

If I speak for myself. I think in part it’s a passion I think we are in a way, in control, I feel. You’re in control of what you’re doing so you’re building something that is in the back of your mind or it’s something you enjoy, or you something you fancy, or something you want to say or do.

So, you’re really in control what you’re doing there. And there’s another thing, it’s something minute, small. I’ve been involved into museum dioramas, that are 1:1 scale. Or into film props as well, that are 1:1 scale. I don’t feel the same thing.

Chris

There’s that famous Peter Jackson’s Weta studio work for the museum in New Zealand as well. They were sort of what? 3:1 scale? It was huge, wasn’t it?

Ivan

They made something, the Gallipoli experience, they made something gigantic in front instead of minute. But that’s a really good concept. I was coming to that. It’s the scale factor. Scale is something very important. It’s something very important because when it’s small, I think it depends. It depends on the size. If you’re going too minute, too small,

It’s a little bit destructive. So, you have, let’s say, a battlefield in 1/1000… You’re not seeing the people inside it, but you’re seeing the overall picture. But when you’re building up the scale and especially because, in fact I studied it as well, what Peter Jackson did, this thing about the Weta-made gigantic. They wanted to evoke the story. So, they made it something more impressive. You’re seeing something gigantic and like you want to explore more. You’re like… it’s a different concept. You’re not into control of things. You’re minute to the story.

I think when we’re building up, let’s say I enjoy 1/35th, 1/32 scale. That’s my scale I prefer. I think. I feel I have control, I’m seeing them in my hands. I’m building them and but still I’m seeing their facial expression and I’m like Gulliver in Lilliput, in a way. But when you’re seeing something bigger, I experienced myself going into a film studio. Lately in Malta they were shooting Gladiator.

And when I entered the film set and seeing, for example, I felt I’m in Rome. I felt the extras running around me like I’m the odd person out instead of the people and the actors dressed up.

I felt really I’m ino Rome. So I went into the subject and I think that’s something I see in modelling, especially when I’m building things. Even… Honestly, I think building especially things sometimes, it’s a bit of a horrific experience going into those tracks and those minute things building up. Some enjoy it, I don’t. Honestly, I don’t. I want to get into the finish. But still, you’re building up that experience. I think it is an experience. It is an experience. And it is feeling part of history. And we go back to living history in a way. In your hands.

Chris

I think, with danger of straying off philosophy into psychology, but I think control is a big part of it. I think particularly if we have lives where we’re working for other people and we’re constantly in demand from other people, to have something you’re completely in control of is very relaxing. It takes away the sort of anxieties of it. But at the same time, when it’s a creative thing like that, you have total control because you’re not just telling the story how you want, you’re creating the story and everything. So that’s very enjoyable to have something that starts with nothing, maybe a kit, and ends in something you totally created. I think that’s very satisfying.

Ivan

That’s true. I totally agree with it.

Chris

I think with the Peter Jackson Gallipoli thing, I wonder whether that’s part historiography as well, because the way when the centenary came around and the way Peter Jackson sort of reacted with that with his World War I films and so on, there’s a kind of a tendency in our societies to memorialize and monumentalize World War I.

And I wonder whether that’s part of it, that it’s great big monumental scale. It’s like a worship or a homage of that history.

Ivan

So true.

It was so true because you can go into… there’s a good YouTube channel and it does explain really what they went into the story. The idea is because New Zealand, although they entered World War I, they still have… so they went out of their way, in a way. They went to Western Front and other places or Gallipoli, which is quite a strange, exotic place for them. And what is more monumental for them is because it seems that everyone inside New Zealand has a connection with World War I. They have someone that’s… There is some kind of connection. So in a way, there was a feeling into that exhibition.

A strange factor was, people aren’t really aware about this. They made a war experience inside an art museum. That was in Topaka. It’s an art museum. Originally.

Chris

That’s very important as well, the setting, the venue.

Ivan

So, if you [look at] how they planned out the story, these gigantic statues they created, they went into miniatures videos and anything so they made a whole concept of how practically your mind plays when seeing these things and they selected these few artifacts or stories, and then recreated their idea. But they ended up with quite a nice thing to, like a connection. They ended up with this figure of an ANZAC in the Western Front, all drenched with mud, and they asked the visitors to take a poppy and write something and throw this poppy, a paper poppy, and they made a case study from what they came up with and strangely enough a lot of from the younger generation wrote what they experienced when they saw this exhibition.

So, this is something we need to be aware when we do models in a way. And other people are experiencing something, what we are showing. Not just it could be artistic, it could be evocative, it could be revealing something. And so we need to look into this philosophy thing behind what we’re doing.

Chris

I think you don’t have to think about what you model, but it can really enrich your modelling if you do think about it.

Ivan

That’s true

Chris

I do think a lot about why we do it. and it’s a strange thing.

Ivan

Talking to my club mates in IPMS Malta. By the way, I’m IPMS, so maybe… I’m not that kind of man. I’m very, very more open -minded, unlike the traditional strict or “lifting things”. That’s the other side.

Chris

Ha ha.

Ivan

I see different concepts how people, how members in my club look at models. There are those that are stress relief. They are into stressful jobs or want to escape problems, life problems. So yes, modelling can be quite a good tool.

You relieve anxiety, even myself. I have a problem with anxiety myself. I cannot. And I find model making that helps me a lot. As long as it comes good

Chris

Some kits increase your anxiety.

Ivan

I saw tanks flying in my studio so I cannot blame that. So yes, there are many. So it is quite a theoretical thing what is model making for everyone. And I feel it changes as well. There’s no one strict way.

Might be this week I’m feeling I need to destress. In fact, recently I’ve did it myself. I was building dinosaurs. Believe it or not, I was building dinosaurs. Just I want to do a habitat diorama. I felt I am enjoying doing this instead of the usual strict subjects or something like that. So I think it’s up to a personal choice. So, you change, you change. This is an evolution.

Chris

And it’s a great hobby for that. You can get so many different things out of it.

Ivan

Yes.

Chris

Okay, I think we’re pretty much at the end.

Before we go though, we had some really sad news yesterday and I wondered if you wanted to say a few words about it.

Ivan

Unfortunately, yes, quite a tough thing. Yesterday, one of our founder members in our club passed away, Luis Carabott.

He was not just a master modeller for us, he was quite an all -rounder. But apart from that, speaking for myself and even for my brothers in arms in the club, he was not just a friend, he was our mentor, our father, our kid’s grandfather. So he was quite one of a kind.

We lost a treasure in a way, one of our pillars in our club. But unfortunately, that’s life. What’s good about it, he really left a legacy. And I think even his model making and some of our models are in our national collection in the VHU museum so people can still enjoy his work and remember him.

And for sure, for sure he will be part of the Maltese society of modelmakers.

Chris

I only knew Lou a little, but he seemed to be someone who always really understood the joy of model making and was really good at spreading that to other people.

Ivan

That’s true. He really enjoyed model making in a way. He started, for example, with aircraft, then passing to figures, then passing to building ship dioramas, exclusive ship dioramas. And lately into his 70s, he was doing cars. For example, recently he just had built the Airfix Bentley, a horrible model for this age, but he managed to, just really reconstruct it and he used to really, he was passionate, passionate, very passionate about model making. And one thing, he was a real master, a very real master, but he passed on his skills even to a younger generation, even to novice. That’s something, something to be really honoured about him and something, we should, all of us, learn from. I think something will lead to pass on.

Chris

I really do want people to have a look at Lou’s beautiful dioramas and models. Thank you.

Ivan

Thank you. A tribute to our dear Lou. We call him Nanou, grandpa.

Thats all for this blog and discussion. I hope you have enjoyed it as much as I enjoyed making it.

Don’t forget, you can listen to this one on all good podcast apps, just look for “The Model Philosopher”

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INTRODUCTION:
Like many of us, John Rosengrant started modelling as a young child, in his case; historical and classic  monster models. After studying at art college, he moved to Los Angeles to break into the movie business, and after a period of hard work and hustle, he managed to get into the famous Stan Winston Studios where he learned his trade in character design and effects, working on movies like the Terminator series, Aliens, Predator, the Jurassic Park series, Ironman, and Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull.

He went on to co-found his own effects studio; Legacy Effects where he continued to work on some of the most famous movies of the late 20^th and early 21^st century, including Guardians of the Galaxy, The Hunger Games, Avengers movies, Iron Man series, Pacific Rim, and a personal favourite of my own, Guillermo del Toro’s the Shape of Water.

Lately, he created, and operated the puppet of Grogu in the Mandalorian, a character that was intended to be CGI until he convinced Jon Favreau to try a puppet, and it became the character we know and love today.

Throughout his film career, you could say that what John has always delivered, is characters. Creatures and characters that have suspended disbelief to connect with viewers on an emotional or visceral level, to serve the story of the films he worked on.

alongside 40 years of work in the film industry, he has always continued to work on scale modelling, as a personal pursuit and for companies like S&T Products, and Warriors Scale Models, with Chris Mrosko.

As with his film work, John has always imbued his modelling with character, and pathos. His superb grasp of anatomy, pose, and expression has allowed him to produce some truly memorable and iconic pieces, like ‘Leave No Man Behind’, ‘The True Face of War’, ‘Valley Forge’ and his tired and shell shocked Pacific Marine.

In all his work, there is a story, a point, communicated from author to reader, and I was very happy indeed when he agreed to this interview.

Chris

Thank you, John Rosengrant for joining me on The Model Philosopher.

John Rosengrant

It’s my pleasure, honestly.

Chris

Can you tell me how you got into making models? What was it about making them that first appealed to you?

John Rosengrant

I started when I was five years old and my model making journey probably ran in tandem with my sci -fi, special effects makeup, and animatronics. I was interested in all those things at once. But the first model kit, my dad, I’m sure he stayed up all night long building this thing. He hated things like models and art and all that. But he did a King Kong, the old Aurora kit for me, because I really wanted that. And the first thing I noticed is it’s missing some of the palm trees. And he’s looking at me… Now, in hindsight, I can look back and go, “Santa Claus wasn’t happy doing this!” So anyway, that was my first real interest in models. But then I really got into them. At seven, eight years old when I think my dad did a few with me but then you could just tell he didn’t have the patience or didn’t want to do them so I started building them and I did a lot of airplanes, I did ships, did a B -17, P -51, you know all the typical stuff but then a little later I got real serious with it.

When I was probably 12, 13 years old, I started getting into reading about history and I got into 1/72nd scale aircraft from World War I. And I read this book called ‘The Canvas Falcons’ and I was just fascinated with World War I aircraft. So, I was always going to the hobby shop, and then I think around 1973, I saw the Tamiya kit of the Panzer II F with the Afrika Korps guys, you know, running alongside.

Chris

I can picture the box art now.

John Rosengrant

Great box art, great box art. And at that time, the figures seemed fantastic to me, but you look back on them now, they’re little blobs. But at the time, you’re young and you have this imagination, and you start projecting some of that upon them and they were more miraculous than they actually were.

And then not too long after that, I discovered Shep Paine and I realized that he was sculpting and converting figures and I bought a magazine that had that the two Hanomags in there, the 251s. And I was just, I couldn’t get enough of that. That was just incredible to me. And I ended up buying that Shep Paine inspiration piece.

Then I started buying all those Monogram kits just to get his tip sheets out of them. Terrible kits. And the scale felt wrong to me because I was so entrenched by that point, in 1/35th, it’s like 1/32nd, but I didn’t care. I wanted the tip sheet in each and every one of them. And I just, couldn’t get enough of what he was doing.

I was just really fascinated with being able to create my own figures. I’m, you know, self -taught, and there’s a lot of trial and error, and green stuff, putty, and, you know, stuff that didn’t really work that well. But that’s how you learn. You really do. It is just dive in, make mistakes, and just know the next one will be better, and you realize, well, there’s got to be a better way of doing this. And then you’ll read in a magazine, or somebody will have a little blurb of “I used an epoxy putty” and, you know, then you start going down that path and you start figuring it out. You know, I bought some Milliput silver yellow it’s just… how does anyone work with this? But Roger Saunders sure found a way to do it.

Chris

I still feel that way about Milliput!

John

You know, it’s just what you get used to. I use mostly all Magic Sculpt now. I do some things in clay and I’ll mould them. But mostly I even find myself doing more and more just in Magic Sculpt because I’ve learned you have to go back and carve and tune it up. But I’m getting sidetracked here, getting into technique. But, yeah, Shep Paine.

Big influence, big influence on me.

Chris

What is it you enjoy about sculpting?

John Rosengrant

You know, I think it’s creating characters. And now that I’m doing it more and more since I’ve been retired, I feel like, and I’m not saying this from a braggadocious standpoint, but I feel like I’m getting better at it. Because, you know, the more that you can do it, it’s just, it’s becoming more fun even. I’ve always had fun with it, but it’s even more fun now. And I think now I don’t have to worry about a job or deadlines and all these other things. So now I can just take this stuff on and do it. But I enjoy creating characters. And for me, I still like building vehicles and whatnot, but I like populating them with soldiers and people. I think that’s what tells the story, not just some big hunk of steel, but it’s the people that had to endure these things. like telling a story with them, creating a character.

Chris

There is a lot of emotion in your sculpted work. I’m thinking particularly of the soldier with the mask (‘the True Face of War’). Some of the other stuff as well. Is that something you try to put through, more sort of character and emotion into them?

John Rosengrant

Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. I really look at photos and I study them, because I wasn’t there, I didn’t do it, but I try to think about what that would be like. You know, you’re 19, 20 years old and you’ve been whisked off with all these patriotic ideas and then you get in the middle of it all and find out. This is really…horrible. I did a portrait for a collector of his dad who was in the Hurtgen forest and he sent me a bunch of pictures and what I noticed was you know a bright -eyed young man before he went [to Europe] you know, when he was in the army initially; and then, looking at photos of him after he had come back from the war, he had aged 10 years. So for me when I was capturing his portrait, because I had a lot of pictures of him as a young man, but I also used some of the things after the war because…

I think it takes a toll, it takes a toll on you. Not sleeping, not eating.

Chris

I imagine that the family member as well, would know the man after the war better than the man before the war as well.

John Rosengrant

True, true. Yeah, because he looked so young beforehand and when he came out, it’s probably all of 22, maybe 23 at the most. But he looked 35. I mean, he just… And there’s something about those young men of long ago. I think they were a more serious generation and they all looked older to me, and they still do when I look at them in photos. They don’t seem like they’re 19.

There was a friend of my dad who was at Omaha Beach on the 29th and you know talking to him about it it’s just like “I don’t know why I lived I don’t know why I didn’t do anything any different”. And I think a lot of them kind of had that feeling. when they came back it’s just like well why me? I’m grateful but at the same time they probably lost so many friends and people you were close to. So anyway, I try to incorporate that into the figures: all of the thought process that might be going on.

Chris

Of course, creating characters and what have you, has been your trade for 40 years.

John Rosengrant

It has, yeah. I had the fortune of working with teams of great artists, great people, and we had the opportunity to create some really iconic characters for film. So I think that must be ingrained in me. But also when I was a young man in high school, I was really fascinated with Howard Pyle,  N.C. Wyeth and those American illustrators because they were being asked to tell a story, to illustrate a book and so with a painted image, they sometimes outdid the book with their artwork and it became much more intriguing to look at their artwork.

That’s how they saw it. And the film business is a lot like that. You know, you’re creating a story, but you’re also projecting an image and you’re creating it.

Chris

There’s an extra layer added, I guess, with the interpretation of what you’re given to do. The way you sort of translate what the director or the writers want, into what people see.

John Rosengrant

It is and there’s a bit of performer in all of us and then of course once we made and created and built this stuff, we took it to set and performed it as puppeteers, but You do put yourself into the character and I do the same thing with the miniatures It’s important to sort of project into the character and to think of it not as a single dimension but a little deeper than that, because I think there is some emotion that does come through when you are in a performance or when you think about more than just it’s outside appearance and rendering what’s going on inside.

It really doesn’t think it’s a villain. You know, I’m sure Hitler didn’t think he was a villain.

Chris

They say everyone’s the hero of their own story.

John Rosengrant

I think they are, they probably are, but that’s ego talking.

Chris

Haha, somewhat solipsistic, yeah. But I think if anything, that’s something that’s possibly missing a bit in models. People focus so much on the technology and the machine, that sort of depth of emotion. Even if you don’t make something which is very emotional in appearance or very sort of, you know, full of character, if you’re thinking about the character and you’re, creating that character as you do it, it’s going to come through in pose or in face or in something.

John Rosengrant

It will. It will.

Chris

And do you think that’s something we could do with more of in modellers’ work?

John Rosengrant

Well, I think that helps it transcend from just a model into some form of art. I mean, art is something that’s really not necessary. We do it to, because I don’t know, we’re trying to tell a story or you want it to be beautiful or not really in the case for what we do, but we’re trying to create interest and some…reason to really look at it and think about it. I think the best compliment I got was a couple of times when I had a Vietnam veteran and a World War II veteran who saw my work at a show come up to me, wanted to find me and say that I really captured the look of what they had gone through. And to me, that was the ultimate compliment because that’s what I’m trying to do. Just to hear that back from them. And, you know, [they said it] “brings back smells and things I hadn’t thought of in decades”. It’s like, okay, well, then I’m trying to connect on some other level.

Chris

Well, that’s what art does, doesn’t it? It connects the artist and the viewer. And if there’s not enough there, then they can’t connect.

John Rosengrant

It does. It does. Yeah, if that’s missing, if you don’t take that double take and go back and look at it, it’s because it didn’t move you.

Chris

I’ve heard you say that you put an equal level of effort and commitment into every film you worked on, every project you worked on. How do you find a way in when maybe the script or the project isn’t as engaging or has much meat on it as you might hope?

John Rosengrant

Well, I guess that’s the fanciful young boyish idea you fall in love with it and you think “somehow this is going to rise above what I’ve just read” is not good, but at the end of the day, your work, or your team’s work, is being looked at, and nobody is looking at it and putting the caveat on it “well this movie stunk” They look at it and [ask] did they do a good job? And, at the end of the day, that’s all I could come up with was that we need to make this great and if everybody on the project comes in at that a level, or A -plus level, then maybe it will raise the whole thing up, but I don’t think I’ve put that much thought into it. I think it was just like “no, we’re gonna make this great. This is this is what they’ve hired us to do is to bring this thing to life”.

Chris

Is it a work-ethic thing then that if you’re going to do it, you’re going to do it very well?

John Rosengrant

Probably, you know, it’s a work ethic thing Yeah for sure. There’s that, but it’s also just the want to just do it well.

Chris

Is it the same with commissions? Because I mean, in that case, it’s not so much the team, that you have to support, but if you’re going to spend your time doing something.

John Rosengrant

With my model commissions, whether they be for a collector or if it’s for a manufacturer, I won’t do anything unless I’m interested in it. And that started way back when I started doing this stuff as a second job for, purely for fun.

And it’s like in the film business, it’s collaborative, but at the same time, you’re being art directed in some way by a director or producer, God knows, you know, an accountant or a lawyer, you know, and somebody’s got an opinion and they thrust it upon you. So when I was doing my model work, like you say, commissions, the first rule of thumb, if I’m not interested in winged Polish Hussar from 1918, whatever, I’m not gonna do it. I don’t have any interest. And I prefer it if they say I would like a Revolutionary War, American Revolutionary War figure, or I want a World War II British figure, and leave it up to me. Because I’m very upfront, I tell them that. I’m not going to be micromanaged.

It happened once where the guy wanted a photograph and I felt like the photograph, I don’t know, the guy was firing or something. You’re not connected to the figure. And I said, “I will do the time period and do something similar to that. But I feel like he’s got to be engaged. You got to be engaged. You got to see him. And if he’s covering his face up with a rifle, I am not interested in that.” And so, we proceeded. And, if you don’t want it at the end of the day, it’s fine, somebody else probably will or I’ll just keep it. I don’t care, It ended up, you know, he didn’t care for it because it wasn’t that photo at the end and then I ended up selling it to somebody else and it became a successful figure but I it’s just different philosophies and that’s why I don’t Want to get into that with somebody.

If I’m doing this for fun, I just want to have fun and live or die by my own sword. If I make a bad choice, that’s on me and it’s not somebody else. I did that for years with the movie business. It’s like, there would be times where you kind of go, “what are your art credentials? Cause your ideas suck.”

Chris

Yeah. But that’s a fully commercial transaction, isn’t it? I mean, you’re doing the job, they pay you to do the job.

John Rosengrant

It is and they don’t call it show play or show art. They call it show business so You better understand that too And I would have that issue with my artists that worked for me through the years, you know Well, they didn’t pick mine and all it’s like who’s better Monet or Rembrandt? They’re all different and this producers taste happened to lead into this. And it doesn’t mean you’re not a good artist. Our artists seem to have very fragile egos and shouldn’t have any ego, but you know, as humans we do. And, but there’d be times when you’d almost have to reassure them that it’s, it’s, this is not an attack on you personally as an artist. It’s just, they made another choice. And this is the direction, this is what appeals to them. They like apples, not oranges. So don’t take it personally. I had to learn that lesson myself. That’s why I can give that advice out. Because I remember as a young man starting out in this, you know, you pour your heart and soul into these concept drawings or whatever, and then the guy next to you, his would get picked and yours wouldn’t.

just had to come to grips with it doesn’t necessarily mean you’re not good it’s just it’s not what they wanted. And that was it.

Chris

And they might be wrong, but it’s their money. So.

John Rosengrant

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and I would hear that all the time. “Well, this is a much better design.” “Yeah, I agree with you. It probably is. But guess what? They’re paying for it. And this is what they want.” And there’s a whole host of reasons why they might have gone with that. It’s not offensive. It’s not this. It’s not this. It’s not blue enough. It’s not green enough. Who knows? You know, so I gave up worrying about that.

Chris

Yeah, I suppose everyone that lasts in the industry gets used to that, like you did.

John Rosengrant

I think you sort of have to. You have to sort of realize that it is a business. First come, first serve with the money and give them what they want. And if you’re lucky enough to along the way be able to be creative, which I have to say a lot of times we were, that’s why they did come to us,  they wanted our creativity. And then, you know, on the flip side, you work with a director like James Cameron that has a lot of great ideas. He could do it all himself if he had to anyway, then it becomes very collaborative and it’s enjoyable because you’ve got someone that’s challenging you in a great way. Each experience is totally different. I mean, I had a young director wondering what shots in Aliens were CG. And it’s like, none. It was all old school.

Thank you for the backhanded compliment. But no, none of them were. But it’s just a generational thing too. Everyone is, you know, I’m going to be 66 in June. Been around a while, you know, and working with people half your age, you realize they just haven’t had the same experiences or project their own experiences on, of course they have CG.

Chris

The pendulum seems to have swung back the other way and it’s more practical effects again. Is that something you saw before you retired?

John Rosengrant

Yeah, it does. From my perspective I think they’re both really necessary because there’s things you simply can’t do with Practical effects, that you can achieve. I think was pretty effective in the Mandalorian with the little character, “Baby Yoda” to the world, Grogu. But it was by having it there and performing, you gave the other actor something to react to. And acting is nothing but reacting. You react to somebody’s way, they say something or the way they look at you or don’t look at you. So it gives you something to as an actor to play off of.

So I think in a lot of ways, if you can get what you can in camera with something, great. And then you know you’re going to embellish it. With the Mandalorian, Grogu, if it wasn’t for ILM removing all the rods and cables and things, you’d see the game.

But now that stuff has become so second nature, that it actually makes the puppeteering a little easier to do than back in the day of, say, Aliens where you had to hide everything because you don’t see it. Or if it was a clever filmmaker like James Cameron, he’s lighting it and smokes up the set and you paint it out. He’s always been very aware of what he has to work with. And with The Mandalorian, I was very upfront with Jon Favreau. “This is its pluses, This is its weaknesses. This is how I shot it. You can, and I’ll show you with all the rods and I’ll show you without them.” And I’d rather them see what the toolkit is and let them decide how they want to use it than to surprise, you know, you show up on set and it’s like, “what the the heck is that? You know, it’s like you didn’t tell me it was gonna have a cable bundle hanging out of it and rods and whatnot.” So I’d just rather everyone know going in, so there’s no surprises. It’s like, “okay, that’s what it looks like. Yeah. All right. Great. So we’ll shoot it like this.”

But then there’s always somebody wants to push the envelope, I’m game for that. It’s like, “can you do this?”, “I don’t know. Let’s see.” Give it a try. And worst thing you can do is fail. So there was no expectation anyway.

Chris

It sounds like you like a challenge, but given you’ve done so much, do you still find much that challenges you in sculpting or modelling now, after you’ve retired?

John Rosengrant

I think for in my sculpting and modelling now, I just want to make it more realistic. I’m doing some LRDG guys right now, 1/35 so they’re tiny. But you know, in looking at all the photographs and you know, I got one guy just holding a cup of tea, just leaning against the vehicle. But if you do it right, that’s much more captivating than some guy running with his weapon, screaming and yelling and all of that. Because, say 90% of the time, that’s what they were doing. They were probably sitting there.

Chris

Well, they say war is 90% boredom, 10% terror.

John Rosengrant

Totally, totally. I believe that. For the most part, I seem to prefer to show the boredom and the strain of, “when’s it gonna happen?” You know, I felt it in one sense in the movie business on set. You’d be tired, you’d be there for hours and just not knowing exactly when you’re going to go on and when you’ve got to perform and do your thing. So there’s a lot of sitting around and waiting and then, all right, hurry up, go, go. And I can imagine, except for no one’s shooting at me, trying to kill me, there’s a similarity there.

There’s the physical exhaustion of going to the location and schlepping all the gear and doing all of that. And there’s preparing, getting ready, and then there’s, “Hurry up and wait”. You know, a lot of that. Yeah. Hurry, hurry, hurry, hurry.

Chris

And of course, when you are called to do it, you have to give your A game, no matter how tired you are or how long you’ve been waiting, you have to.

John Rosengrant

Exactly. Yeah, and the adrenaline pumps and you go, and you jump into it. Exactly. I hate it now. I won’t do it now. But I remember early in my career being up all night the night before trying to get something done. Sometimes it was because they changed the schedule and you had to accommodate them. Sometimes it was just everyone’s lack of understanding the schedule and how long shit takes to make, But now, I’m not the ‘burn the midnight oil’ guy I used to be, you know in high school, procrastinate with every art project until the night before But now it’s like no, I don’t like that feeling I’m too old for that.

Chris

You can only do that so long. I was always a “burn the candle at both ends” guy until I hit my mid-forties. And then I just thought, I don’t want to do that. I just physically couldn’t do it anymore.

John Rosengrant

I agree, I agree. Yeah, and probably my mid -40s I was, you know, I was working for Stan Winston at that point, but he was turning over more and more to me and the other guys to do and run. And so I was always in the mindset, “let’s just get this done early”. So we’re not up all night, the night before trying to get it done.

Because inevitably, you know, if you do do your best work, you’re not going to feel great afterwards. You’re going to be exhausted. I don’t like that anymore. There’s no fun in that. There’s no fun in that.

Chris

Well, it just ruins the next day. You think, that’s great, we got it done, but it’s just the next day, you know, you just can’t do anything.

John Rosengrant

Yeah. Well, and on set, the next day is just as action packed as the day you just did. So you string those along, a few of those days and you’re pretty exhausted.

Chris

I imagine the film business is very much one of those jobs where, when they want something, they want it yesterday and you know, long days, full days working. Is it nice to work at your own pace now, to sculpt whatever you want?

John Rosengrant

It is nice to work at my own pace because you’re right, the film business was that and that’s all they care about. And whatever your personal life is or whatever you got going on, your kids, family always had to seem to take a backseat to what they wanted, when they want it, how fast, how, you know, when, where, you know, always front and center.

And that does get exhausting. You know, you’re always accommodating. But now, when I get up and I work on my own stuff, I figure out what I’m going to take to a show, and I’m going to get that work done, or what’s a paying gig, what’s not what I’m doing just for me. But yeah, and there’s no crushing deadline. Nobody’s going to be sitting there, you know, $300 ,000 a day on set, the whole film crew waiting for you to show up and do your thing. None of that exists anymore, so it’s nice.

Chris

I mean, the model business has changed in a similar way, I guess, to the film business in that computers have changed it with the advent of 3D. And I know you’ve worked with some 3D stuff, but how do you feel about 3D versus traditional scratch and modelling?

John Rosengrant

I’m surprised 3D took as long as it did to get going because I know we started doing 3D stuff 20 something years ago in the film business and we had switched over so a lot of digital 10 years ago for sure I mean with all the hard edge suits and endoskeletons and all these things it just really lent itself to sculpting it in 3D and rapid prototyping and printing. And I mean the whole time we were doing this I figured it just would be a matter of minutes before the model industry would catch on. Now everything’s: this is 3D printed, that’s 3D printed. But it feels like it’s late. You know, it took a long time for it to reach. I have no problem with it.

[But there] is no easy button to push. It’s like, all the best sculptors that I had working for me in 3D came from a traditional background. They did it the hard way first. And now they have symmetry, and you can take symmetry off and do all this and sculpt. No, I think it’s opened up more opportunities. I mean, I use a lot of 3D parts when it comes to upgrading kits and whatnot.

Although a lot of people seem to get scale wrong. Scale, to me, is a fixed thing. If your model’s 1/16 scale, so should your figure. And…this measuring from the bottom of the feet to the centre of the eyes, it’s like, I don’t know where that came from. But to me, you would measure a human from the top of his head to the bottom of his heels, the same way you would measure a vehicle from the front of the fender to the back of the fender. However, it’s all the same. I learned that lesson years and years ago when I was working for S &T Models, Jim Sullivan, and I was under the impression, I don’t know why, just because that’s what it was out there, it was 1-16th is 120 millimetres. And it’s not, it is not. 120 millimetres is huge.

I started sculpting figures to go in a Tamiya Tiger 1 in 1/16 scale. And I test fit the figure I was doing and it’s like, “this is wrong. This is huge. This is freaking huge”. And then you start doing the math and it’s like, well, 1/16 is not 120 millimetres. 120 millimetres, it’s gotta be seven foot tall. And yes, there’s some humans that are seven foot tall, but they didn’t exist in Tiger Tanks in World War II.

Chris

If you look at World War II photos, those guys were really small. Because a lot of them grew up in the 30s when there wasn’t a great diet. They weren’t particularly tall and they were certainly not particularly wide either.

John Rosengrant

No they were probably 5’6”, 5’9”, hundred and thirty pounds ringing wet and yeah and anyway how I got off on that tangent, but you know you would think in digital you wouldn’t make those problems the same mistakes, but they do. I see a lot of figure companies that will do things, you know, they’ll be pretty nice looking figures, nicely detailed. I’m not sure they do their research though, you know, you find things that is just like, “that’s not what it looks like, that’s what the liner looks like, that’s not what the helmet looks like.” But I think you’ve got a generation of maybe people that understand how to work the program really well, but maybe they haven’t made the mistake of making something too big to fit a kit or they’re told make it 120 millimetres and that’s what they do.

You know, you look at lots of 135th figures, they’re huge. They’re actually, big. They look funny.

Chris

I remember the Verlinden figures were always more like 1/32.

John Rosengrant

Easily 1/32 second or 1/30, they were. Anyway, that’s something. And if you do a tall figure, you know, there were people over 6’1”, 6’2” back then, but make sure that they’re skinny and lean and they look right next to the vehicle because it’s all part of, to me, what it takes to tell that story and make it look real and make it believable. Have it scaled properly.

Chris

So realism is something that’s really important to you.

John Rosengrant

It is, it is, and It’s probably not to people the same way it is to me. I mean, there’s a young generation that grew up on video games. So, I mean, I noticed, going back to my film days in the first Jurassic Park, they were very concerned about gravity and weight and the dinosaurs and weight transfer and all. And then that seemed to go out the window. Things were just anti -gravity, huge. Dragons flying through the air and leaping and, to me, just because you can do it doesn’t mean you should. I mean, I always felt like what we were doing was making the unbelievable believable. And making the unbelievable even more unbelievable just wasn’t my thing. I remember James Cameron saying something. “He goes, you can suspend belief with an audience for mere seconds. If you tread beyond that, then your people are going to start to question what you’ve done.” But at the same time, you do want to soup it up a little bit because that’s why people are watching it. They’re looking for escape and they want to see. Keanu Reeves jump across to a building that they couldn’t do from one to the other. There is a limit. You can stretch that disbelief a little too far to where people go, “all right, this is a bunch of malarkey.”

Chris

Is history important to you as well with models? Do you think models can tell history?

John Rosengrant

I do. And for me personally, I have such a book collection and I collect information and I collect uniforms and gear and all these things. For me, it’s important. That’s how you get the realism. And when I sculpt, I will put that uniform on or I’ll put it on my son and take photos or I’ll get my wife to take photos of me in the pose because each type of material and cut folds a different way and it has its own unique look. That looks like wool, that looks like leather, that looks like cotton. We’re [all] doing the best we can, but I try to incorporate that into each piece so that when you look at it, people know if it looks right or not. They’re drawn to it because it’s like, “the drapery on that looks right”. Well, there’s a reason, because I put that uniform on and that’s how it really does fold. So it helps inform you as an artist.

But back to your question about history. I think yes, it all goes hand in hand. I spend as much time researching what I’m going to do. Or if I don’t know, it’s like this LRDG thing. I knew more about the SAS than I did the LRDG. But I bought a bunch of books and I got immersed into it when the idea was brought to me to sculpt figures for it. I liked the idea, so I took it on. It’s like I had an interest in it. I always liked the photos and then you say, “well, that looks interesting.” But you do have to understand the battle or whatever it was.

I just recently went to Gettysburg, and I live now in Tennessee, and nearby is where the Battle of Franklin was. But it helps to walk the battlefield and to see where this happened. And boy, there’s some things in Gettysburg I’m looking at and it’s like, well, wow, the Confederates came charging up from there to here uphill. It’s like those guys are different stocks than we are today. Those guys were. Not only are they in shape, but for you to do that, you had to really believe in that cause or just feel like you had no choice, I don’t know. But I was amazed. It’s like,  you’re trudging up, you’re coming uphill and people are firing at you and you’re moving forward.

I remember I worked on a movie called The Revenant and I took my wife to see it and she looked at me afterwards, she goes, “I’d rather just be dead than to go through that.” But yeah, no one’s medevacking you off a mountain back then. And if you break your leg, you’re probably gonna die. But it’s interesting to me, I look at it from the standpoint o,f you actually thought you had a chance to go maybe be killed by Indians or animals or disease or hardship.

You think you have a better chance of going and becoming a trapper or a mountain man than you do living in the city. So it kind of would always kind of put a perspective on things to me. It’s like, wow, you did this by choice. You went out there. So, something in the back of your mind must be telling you: this is better than what you’ve got. As brutal as it looks to us today. It’s like trying to judge somebody on their beliefs or what went on 200 years ago. It’s sort of impossible.

Chris

There’s never enough context.

John Rosengrant

You don’t have context. You don’t. No, no. I mean, when I saw the Carnton Plantation, which was turned into Confederate Field Hospital during the Battle of Franklin, you can still see the blood stains on the floor up in the children’s room, which became the hospital. But you realize they’re cutting limbs off of people with the same saw and there’s no cleanliness. They don’t know. They just didn’t, and this is 1864, they had no idea that infection, how infections would spread or what you had to do. So it’s just a different world, you know, just a totally different world. And the further you go back, they didn’t have a clue. They really didn’t.

They didn’t even have a clue 80 years ago. I mean, we’re talking here it is D -Day 80 years ago. They didn’t know half these things we know now, but they knew some things we don’t know now.

Chris

What fascinates me, I was listening to D -Day commemorations this morning and there’s a lot of testimony from people that were there. And also when you’re talking about that Confederate charge, the thing that always gets me about that is there’s this popular idea in culture that these men were somehow different. They just didn’t feel fear and they went and did it. But the thing that’s really impressive about them is they were probably absolutely terrified, but they did it anyway. And that’s the courage is overcoming that terror. When I think of those Confederates as well, the way they would advance, it wasn’t like skirmish like people do now. Great mass ranks of them into massed fire coming the other way.

John Rosengrant

No. Yeah. Yeah, the Battle of Franklin, they’re coming. It was the battle lasted five and a half hours and there was 9 ,000 casualties. 2 ,000 of them Confederate dead. And you’re going up a slight grade, but you’re still moving up a hill. And they’re all coming, all 30 ,000 of them at once.

And I can’t imagine what it felt like on the other side, the union side, to say, they’re really doing this. Okay.

Chris

Well, it might be them doing it tomorrow. So that’s the other thing.

John Rosengrant

Yeah, it’s all pretty stupid. Didn’t accomplish anything, did it really? None of these wars seem to… We do them all over again. The first world war is the war to end all wars and then World War II. Here we are. Yep, we still keep doing it.

Chris

bigger and worse. But how do you put that into a figure? How do you sort of distil all these thoughts and all this sort of empathy?

John Rosengrant

That’s why I did that one where “the True Face of War”. I mean, it’s a little abstract, but I think that whole idea is a little abstract. It’s like on the outside, you’re wearing a mask and you’re masking all the pain that’s really inside and back. You know, World War II, they didn’t call it PTSD. They had it. They just were told to be quiet and deal with it.

I remember there was a guy who lived across from my grandparents when I was growing up. He used to go play with his sons, but Dad was a war hero. I think it was Iwo Jima and he came back with a Japanese sword and flag and all this. He had a problem with the bottle. And that was the way that he, I don’t know, the way he dealt with his situation, you know, of seeing all that horror and whatever. And, you know, he ended up not good. And it’s just a shame, but it uses up people and some people just can’t. I talked to a man the other day who was in Vietnam. He said, yeah, I had an all -expense paid trip to Vietnam. I was the second lieutenant. The first day he was in Khe Sanh or something, rockets came flying over his head. I guess the average life of a lieutenant in Vietnam was like six weeks or something. But he said the way he learned to deal with it all was he learned to close doors. He just closed that chapter. Close that door and move on.

As humans, we all deal with these things differently. One of my good friends growing up, his dad was on Iwo Jima. And he was always pretty calm, nice guy. And then one day, there was some policeman pulled my friend and I over for riding our dirt bikes where we weren’t supposed to. And then I remember his dad just getting so pissed off at that cop.

The policeman was saying, “you haven’t seen the death and destruction I have.” And then he was like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Talk about death and destruction. They were bulldozing bodies into holes where I was. These are good boys. Just leave them alone. Just go away.” But you know, you probably learned to shut some doors.

But sometimes they pop back open.

Chris

Do you think it’s possible to communicate that through models, through what we do?

John Rosengrant

I think there’s a way to do it and I’m still striving for that. I don’t want to… It’s very rare that I want to show someone that’s dead or, you know, the real horror of it all. I don’t want it to be mistaken or glorified in some way. I guess that’s up to me as the sculptor or the painter or whatever, to make sure I convey the right idea.

Chris

I do worry with military modelling, that it presents a particular almost sanitized image of war that’s very much ‘the pipe and drum’ and not what actually happens sometimes.

John Rosengrant

Yeah, yeah. I had a discussion with somebody, at a show, I had done an Israeli piece from the Six Day War. And it was like, well that was too close. It was like, well it’s 1967. It was too close. I mean it was too close for someone in the Crimean War too, when they lived with the turn of the century. I, yeah, I’m, I’m,

I think you’re right in that it’s like, that happened so long ago. It’s a Napoleonic and you got to show this guy in his fresh blue outfit.

Chris

Things I’ve read about Napoleon, Napoleonic Wars as well. Half the time they lived in the uniforms for weeks on end. They didn’t fit very well. And, you know, the image of one, the other is a bit dissonant really.

John Rosengrant

yeah. You have typhus and all these diseases. And when I was at that Gettysburg Museum, there’s something I saw is that more men died in the Civil War of disease than they did when being shot or killed. Just because they had no idea. Don’t drink that water. It’s like, well, why not? Yeah, Napoleon, there’s nothing nice about any of these wars.

Chris

I mean, I’ve done a couple of things. I’ve just finished one today actually about the Ukraine war. And I think it is possible to model almost any war as long as you’re, for want of a better word, responsible about it. As long as you’re aware of what you’re doing and you’re not just… Because I also worry that with current wars, it’s like a form of consumerism, of entertainment to make models about them unless you’re really thinking about what you’re saying with the model.

John Rosengrant

Yeah, yeah. No, I can see that. You have to be, you have to be careful. Yeah, and can [be] a bit raw.

Chris

Well, like anything, you can do it badly or you can put a bit more thought into it.

John Rosengrant

I’m also working on 1/16th, the famous couple of guys in those SAS jeeps. I mean, it’s very heroic images. But I like the image of I think it’s Kennedy and McDonald with their shemaghs on, blowing in the wind, driving the Jeep and all that. They’re cool. And there’s that attraction to that. I Remember famous directors saying “don’t tell me you’re doing it because it’s cool. You know, give me a reason.” Sometimes it’s just cool.

Chris

The things that make it cool though, are interesting. They were very tough, very hardy men who decided to not think about, or I suppose they thought about it, but decided to know about the dangers, not just of the war they were in, but the desert and being out there without water and potentially running out of fuel and things. And just do it anyway, quite piratical in a sense.

John Rosengrant

I think, yeah, I think so. And I think some of it’s just being young and not realizing the danger. Yeah, I think of the things I did when I was young. It’s just like, I don’t know, you just don’t have the same respect for things because you haven’t lived through it. You haven’t done it yet.

Chris

Yeah, the confidence of youth. Yeah.

John Rosengrant

I’m sure some of it was blindly going down a path and then you find yourself in the middle of it. But as humans we find a way to cope with whatever situation is thrown at us. And those SAS and those LRDG guys in the desert, like you say, no water and they’re conserving fuel. Back when they used to teach dead reckoning, so you knew how to get home or you could look at the stars in the sky and figure out where you were. You didn’t have a GPS to tell you. Make a right turn.

Chris

Maybe a sun compass. But even so there’s no features to navigate. Well, very few features to navigate by out there. I guess one looks much like another. Yeah, you had to know what you were doing.

John Rosengrant

You do have the Sun Compass, yes. Those guys didn’t even have radios. They couldn’t even communicate.

And you know you try to convey that idea of why the flag bearer was such a big deal back in the Civil War or whatever it may be. It’s because people are looking towards that flag to understand whether they’re moving forward or what regiments doing what. Because they couldn’t talk. They didn’t have a loud hailer. And I imagine once that cannon fire got started and those muskets are going off and you couldn’t hear a darn thing and your eardrums are probably blown out. And yeah, you’ve got, you’re looking at a flag to tell you what to do.

Chris

Literal fog of war with all that black powder back then as well.

John Rosengrant

Hmm, yeah, yeah.

Chris

Why do you think we make models? What do you think it is about making little miniature things?

John Rosengrant

That’s a great question. I don’t know that I’ve ever really contemplated it to that level. My wife will ask me that. “Why don’t you do an angel or a beautiful thing?” And it’s like, huh, that’s a good question. I don’t know. I’m just drawn to this. I don’t know exactly why. Maybe it’s something to do with, I keep hearing the word, the hardship of it and what these people went through and…I just, for some reason, seem more drawn to seeing humans against adversity than not. I don’t know. It’s a really good question. Why do we do this? Yeah, because it’s a strange little hobby when you think about it.

Chris

Maybe it’s a creative way to tell that story. Maybe it’s a way you can, from nothing, make something that speaks about that.

John Rosengrant

Well, for me, I do like that, starting out with thin air or a model kit and building around it to tell a story. I do like that. Maybe I’m just meant to tell these men’s stories from the past. I don’t know. I’m not sure. That is the essence, though, of why do we do this?

Chris

I think it’s the one question we never ask ourselves. And sometimes I wonder whether it’s like the forbidden question, because if you question it too much, you might start wondering why you do it. Maybe it’s best not to ask haha.

John Rosengrant

Haha Sure.

Yeah, why am I obsessed with how many bolts are on the Tiger Tank Cupola, you know? It’s weird. It is. It is strange. Maybe that’s also why at these shows why there’s such an overwhelming look at the fantasy world, it’s exploding. Maybe because people just aren’t as interested in that history and how many bolts are on the Tiger tank, and where’s the seam run on a World War II British great coat from 1939. I mean, these are all, it’s different.

It seems like this younger generation just wants to create something fanciful. For me, I like the military thing because I created fantasy for 40 years. Everything I did was fantasy. So now, I like it being established and you’re just trying to recreate something that that already happened, it’s different than the fantasy thing.

Chris

I wonder as well, it’s because we grew up around people that fought those wars. Like you were saying, your friend’s father was on Iwo Jima, my father was in the Falklands war, my grandfather was in World War II, and maybe that’s it. It’s because we’ve got that close family connection to the things that happened, and the younger generation don’t have that.

John Rosengrant

Yeah, it’s true. When I was driving to Gettysburg, I was talking to my dad who’s 93. He goes, “You know, you had a great, great grandfather that fought in Gettysburg.” And it’s like, “Really? You never told me this.” So, this was a new piece of information. But when you think about it, great, great, it’s not that far removed.

Chris

No.

John Rosengrant

It’s really not. I mean, that was my dad’s great grandfather. He actually met him when he was five or something, but it’s like, it’s not that far away. It’s only 165 years ago. It’s really not that far gone. But, you know, each generation keeps coming along. It does. It gets further and further.

And people don’t know it the same way as we probably do. There’s something to what you’re saying. I mean, we grew up with people that we really knew, fought in World War II, that were somebody’s dad and somebody’s parent and a grandparent, and we knew them. So there was a real connection.

It’s like long, long, long ago. And you know what’s interesting with the fantasy thing is, there’s a lot of painters, not so many sculptors.

Chris

Yeah, yeah. I was listening to the Plastic Posse earlier and they were talking about, talking to Eric Swinson, I think it was, and he was saying that you don’t see people converting or sculpting so much in fantasy, like you’re doing, I mean, historically it’s very common to convert or sculpt your own miniatures, but they seem to be more painters than sculptors.

John Rosengrant

Yeah.

I agree with that. Eric is a very talented guy and a very talented painter and idea man. I think, I’m not sure if he sculpts, but he partners with guys that do and they execute together their ideas. But I might have that all wrong. I mean, I don’t know. I know Eric from a couple shows. He’s very talented, but I agree with him. I see a lot more painting in that world than I do sculpting.

Chris

In fact, I’ve heard them call themselves painters rather than modelers. It’s more common to call themselves painters, which says something.

John Rosengrant

I think there’s a tendency each generation that passes, they just, we had to create things growing up. There was not the market. There wasn’t, I mean, now there’s a thousand figures you can go buy.

Chris

Even so, I sculpt because I can never find the ones I want, to tell the story I want, if you see what I mean. You can never find the right poses.

John Rosengrant

Me too. Me too. Yeah. So, and you know, I got that from Shep Paine. It’s like he took those little Tamiya figures and turned them into something great. I mean, at that time, they’re spectacular for 1973. Do they hold up today in the same way? No. But he was the innovator, and he was coming up with that stuff when none of us were. So hats off to him.

Chris

There should be more sculpting. People should do more of it.

John Rosengrant

They should. I think when I talk to people about it, they seem intimidated.

Maybe it was helpful when I got into it. It wasn’t at the same level. Now, if you enter into the sculpting game, you’re competing against digital sculptors, you’re competing against people who have been doing it for an awfully long time, have a lot of knowledge. I could see how it could be intimidating.

But at the same if you don’t do it…

Chris

But then again, you can make anything you want.

John Rosengrant

Yeah, you can make anything you want. And if the man who does nothing makes no mistakes. So it’s like, put it out there. Just do it. You will get better. I mean, I think most of us have artistic talent, but you just have to try to tap into it.

Musicians will say you gotta go back to the woodshed. You gotta go learn those chops. You’ve gotta. If you don’t do it, if you have a Zen modelling experience and collect all these things, think about how you would do it. “I think it would be that shade of Gray. It’s perfect. I’ve embellished it with all of the things on the market.”

Chris

Just do it mentally haha.

John Rosengrant

It was like this Thunder Models kit that I just did, and a Miniart kit. They’re not fun. I felt for people that were young and just getting into this is like you’d leave half the parts off because you’d lost half of them. There’s a little tiny thing, ping, flying.

And I don’t know, I had to scratch build several things out of plastic because of the photo etch, it’s like I hate that stuff. They turn out good, but they it’s like, it’s like 20 parts to create one, Tamiya, to me, is the king of engineering. I’ll leave it at that.

Chris

They’ve got a really good balance between detail and fun.

John Rosengrant

Yeah, yeah, and you can certainly embellish them. You know, people give those Dragon kits a bad name, but I think all the instructions, trust me, a lot of these instructions aren’t that great. Yeah, I never thought the Dragon kits were that horrible.

Chris

No, me either.

John Rosengrant

It’s like, okay, yeah, you’ve never built one of these other ones. They’re in your stash, they’re in your collection, but go build a thing if you want.

Chris

I do think “try and build a 1980s Italeri kit, or Academy kit from their early days.” You’ll become intimately acquainted with filler and all kinds of other things. At least these kits go together, even if they’re a bit over complicated.

John Rosengrant

Ha ha ha ha.

Yeah, there’s that.

Chris

All right, well, thank you very much. I’ve really enjoyed this. I hope you have too.If you have any feedback or any questions, please do write into info@insidethearmour.com or leave your comments on the blog for John.

And John, thank you very much.

John Rosengrant

You’re very welcome. I enjoyed this.



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