For some weeks now I have been telling you about our fantastic sponsor, my favourite modelling show in the world: Scale Model Challenge. Today we will be hearing from the main organiser of the show, Robert Crombeecke, and from head ordnance judge, and former guest on the show, Ivan Cocker, and from head figure judge and professional miniature painter, Fabrizio Russo
The guys sat down with me this week to talk judging, tell us about the style of contest at SMC, and to tell us more about the latest news from the show.
Chris
Thank you for joining us in this special interview for the Model Philosopher, We are here to talk about Scale Model Challenge, which is my favourite show in the modelling calendar.
I think everything about it is geared towards excellence in a model show. And one thing that I always love, and I think stands head and shoulders above events of a similar nature is the contest. So here today we have Robert Crombeecke, Ivan Cocker and Fabrizio Russo to talk
Now, why don’t you quickly introduce yourselves, so people know who you all are. Robert, why don’t you go first?
Robert
Okay, my name is Robert Crombeecke. I am the main organizer of SMC, also the founder of the show. I started in modelling roughly 25, almost 30 years ago, since 2007 trying to make the difference and I am married to Margot and she’s also in the hobby painting miniatures figures even crazier than I ever was in the hobby so she’s she’s very fanatic about her painting and we both travel together to shows, visiting other shows, obviously trying to promote our own event, but also to see how other people are doing this. And this whole organizing thing has become a main part of the hobby itself. So a little bench time for me, but I think it’s all worth it at the end of the day. So that’s me in a nutshell.
Chris
Ivan, how about you?
Ivan Cocker
https://modelphilosopher.com/modelling-history-with-ivan-cocker/Hi, I’m Ivan Cocker from Malta. So I’ve honoured again to be head judge at SMC. I’ve been into this field for I think eight years now. And I’ve been in international competitions since 96. Started off as a judge and then moving on as head judge at SMC. I take care of ordinance. We have quite a team of selected judges, quite a vast category as well in ordnance. My background, I have touched almost all military parts in modelling. Started work from AFVs, dioramas, figures. Nowadays, it’s my profession being a modeler as well. I take care of models of inside museums and conservative and even take care of very old models. So it’s something quite different. What’s modelling for me, especially shows like this, is the sharing aspect of it and meeting quite a spectrum of friends and something positive about it. It’s an experience. And that simply makes a difference. (check out our interview with Ivan https://modelphilosopher.com/modelling-history-with-ivan-cocker/)
Chris
Fabrizio:
Fabrizio RUSTO Russo
Hello, I’m Fabrizio from Milan. I started as a painter. I’m a professional painter since 2001. It’s a job for me all day. And I really like it. It’s so easy. Before painting three -dimensional, I was a traditional painter, but when I started painting miniatures, I never stopped. So this is my hobby and my life and my job. I did a lot of judges during this period. And the first time I was in SMC was as a judge. It’s a very high level contest, you know.
And so there are strong names, but not only strong names. So you can find easily beautiful art in all the people around. So it’s very interesting. And as Robert said, it’s different from the other. This year,
I have the opportunity to be a judge with Ivan. I’m so happy about it. It’s the first time for me. So we’ll see. I’m so electric about it.
Chris
And you’re taking over figures, right? Which is a fantasy, historical, figure diorama. It’s quite a range, isn’t it? Like Ordnance is a big range of categories there.
Fabrizio RUSTO Russo
Yeah, the contest is very strong, as I said before, I think I can easily say that as a median quality, it’s probably the highest in the world. So, yeah, it’s the kind of contest that you have to be prepared to take part in . When you prepare something for a contest, there are two options. You have to be focused on your way to move your standard. And another one,” I’m okay, I take part because I’m ready to”. So that’s not the way to go to SMC. You have to take care of everything before the show.
Chris
All right, now I’ve been lucky enough to put in a couple of judges briefings and there is a very strong philosophy to this show about finding the good in things. Ivan, can you tell us about that?
Ivan Cocker
So at SMC, our philosophy is open system. But when we start off with the briefing with the judges, we always do a very good talk. And we like to push the idea that we go on a positive thinking. So what is exactly positive thinking? It is easy to try to find mistakes in a model.
It’s easy for any judge to try. There’s no perfect model. So that’s something… It comes automatically. So we try to push the judges to look at what’s good in a model. it’s more a positive thinking. So what’s the best thing the modeler tried to come up with this work of art? [What has] he tried to show us. So we push that very much in the judges. So, and we are very selective how we team up our judges. And so far we can say it’s always working. This kind of thinking.
Fabrizio RUSTO Russo
Yes, I agree. totally agree. It’s a, as I told before, it’s a very strong competition. So the judge side is difficult because of the level and because you’re scared to do mistakes too. So it’s something that you can easily have on a show. It’s so important to be focused on your way of judges and that’s very hard to do.
Chris
I think although Fabrizio you said that the median quality of the show is very high, it’s fair to point out that anyone can enter. It’s not an elitist show in any way. And the beginner’s categories are always well supported. And I think when we’re judging beginners, it’s fair to say that you really are looking for the best. You’re not looking to penalize them or to not reward them. You’re looking to find what they do well and to encourage it and push it for them.
Fabrizio RUSTO Russo
Absolutely, yeah, you always have. When somebody put their own figure on the table, it’s part of his heart. So you don’t have to go with a knife because you are the judge. No, it’s wrong. So there are always methods to say something to improve or something. that you didn’t understand because there are also details that you can’t understand in the message of the artist. So that’s another point.
Chris
Some people say, Fabrizio, that contests tend to encourage figure painters to paint towards what judges want, to kind of preserve their reputations and income, and that maybe there are certain styles and techniques that judges are looking for. Do you think that’s the case or do you think it influences the culture of miniature painting?
Fabrizio RUSTO Russo
I think the best way to approach is always your own research in art. Let’s call him art, art because it’s quite similar. I think the best way is find your way to express each kind of message you want to give to your models.
It’s not so easy to share it with public, but there will be something. When you judge and on the other side, when I judge, I always try to find something more than technique. Technique is an important part of the judgment, obviously, but it’s the academic side of modelling, like the academic side of painting or sculpting and each one of the traditional art culture. that’s very important to me. So if I have to say something about how to take part in a show, try to find your answer, try to find your own question and your answer to each details in your model.
Chris
Do you enjoy seeing something completely new, completely original? Well, maybe original is a strong word, but something different. Is it something that you look for, something unusual, surprising in the work that you’re judging?
Fabrizio RUSTO Russo
Yeah. It’s not so easy to find something new and original because the worst side of modelling is that it’s static. So the typical methods for modelers is to go for a static way, not only in the technical. but also in their own mind. Yeah, sometimes it’s part of, like in my case, it’s part of the job because you have to answer to customers or everyone wants something by you. But when you have to give your own touch, is something different and that’s the part where you can put your art, give something more, your message. Message is something that in art is so important and find something like this is not easy because if not it could be the medium quality.
So sometimes we find the extra point of the figures.
Chris
So what’s the actual criteria you’re looking for when you’re looking at figures?
Fabrizio RUSTO Russo
me. As I said, when I watch on the tables, it’s something that attracts me immediately. So it’s not the technical aspect. The technical aspect, especially masters, is something that you can easily find in each display. Everything is wonderful painted, wonderful sculpted, so it’s so easy to find the super quality in technique. But harmony, colors, or just a little movement, also a little, I don’t know, conversion, create something that is not that kind of figure that you can buy on the table and paint, but it’s something that you have made by your own. it’s, I think it’s, yeah, yeah, yeah, customizes something that creates more aspect, more point that I want to see on the table. My judges also.
Chris
Ivan, how about ordinance? What are you looking for? Judging ordinance.
Ivan Cocker
So we have to split, I think, even the mentality in ordinance from beginner, to standard, to master. So I feel from each step, especially when you start from beginners, it’s a step to follow up from one leading to the other. So someone, especially that enters standard, his expectations are to gain up to masters.
Each category, ordnance is split in diverse categories. We have everything that is not figuring in a way. We have from dioramas, from AFVs, aircraft, sci -fi, ships, vehicles. But still, what we look at is the presentation, the skills involved in building up these models. And finally, it’s the final product that you have on the table. I always emphasize as well, even when I speak to modelers, take care of everything from research, finishing, presentation, even the base. Because sometimes you see this, I hate to say it, ugly thing, a magnificent model and then on a piece of wood that you don’t find it on the floor and pick it up. So I feel that, I used to say to my friend in Malta, you’re going to a wedding with a full suit and with torn up shoes. That’s all, or barefooted. That’s how I see it, honestly. So I think you have to look at everything. So a modeler needs to really, really be nitpicking himself. It’s not the judges that are nitpicking, but the modeler has to be the nitpicker in a way. So it is his showpiece. So put everything, show up what you want to give. It’s a gallery in a way, so show up yourself.
Robert
Some people should actually take a little more notice of the way they present their models. That goes for figures or ordinance. It doesn’t really matter. Sometimes you see pieces that are full with stickers of 2000 other shows that they’ve been on. Or indeed, what Ivan refers to that you see a beautiful piece or at least a very good piece and then it’s just put down on a piece of plywood that they find somewhere or with static grass that is not painted or loose, not glued. If you come too close and you breathe too deep, you inhale all the static grass. And it’s such a shame though.
Ivan Cocker
Hahaha
Chris
hahahaha
Ivan Cocker
It’s a shame. It’s a shame.
Chris
Yeah, it’s like you say, it’s like you put in all that effort and then at the last hurdle you think, “that’ll do”.
Robert
But to set one thing straight, it’s not the most important thing that judges are looking for. It just helps to make your model stand out over the rest. That’s what it is, you know.
Ivan Cocker
Exactly.
Chris
Ivan, do you think that style has homogenized in the vehicle classes over the last few years? I mean, I think there’s a perception that a lot of the same techniques and same models are turning up again and again and again. Do you think competition does that to models?
Ivan Cocker
I think skills are nowadays, they are moving so fast that everyone is learning in a way. In the past we used to go to shows and someone come with a lot of ideas and okay those ideas used to stand up and you used to be like a show puller in a way and then you have a whole year people trying to mimic what this guy has done.
Nowadays with internet it’s basically 24/7 you see it today the following day someone is trying this technique So basically things are so running fast It’s true sometimes especially master class There is a tendency that you say it’s almost you’re seeing a stereotype thing so overall when you when you look at at models you can say, almost seems that everyone is constantly, improving and everyone is the same level. But when you are a judge and you start scrutinizing each model one by one, you will see the difference. will see there are styles, are fashions and there are schools of thought. I can say everything in a way, but it doesn’t reflect that someone is going to be a fan so you have to do this style to win a medal. I don’t recall that. think judges are good enough to pick up what’s positive and what’s really giving a presentation in a way. It’s saying to them something back when you’re seeing this model. It’s reflecting something to them. So that’s that’s why you get the golds, for example, and that’s why you reward certain medals.
Robert
But I think you can also find that the bigger names in, from what I see in armor, or maybe probably also in aircraft, you can still distinguish a certain signature of that particular model. I think a guy like Lester Plaskit, has his own style, for example. And Fabrizio.
Ivan Cocker
Yes, yes, I agree
Robert
I suppose that’s the same in figures. mean, if you look at it from a distance, you might say, “okay, that all looks awesome”, like you just said. But if you really dig in deep, you can still find the individual touches that certain painters have. I mean, like Arnau Lazaro or Kirill Kanaev or Fabrizio Russo, they all have their own style.
Fabrizio RUSTO Russo
Yeah, that’s true. But as Ivan said, with Patreon or the new aspect of sharing and paid to improve, at the moment, are so many, the level is higher and higher, it’s getting higher and higher. But the interpretation is a bit lower than some years ago. That’s probably the biggest problem we have at the moment because we have very fantastic copy painters, I don’t know how to say it, not original painters. And so that’s a problem also for the, let me call them teachers because when I teach, I always say that this is a path that you have to translate at home by yourself. If not, you will never learn anything. You always copy, copy and copy, and that’s something that remains there. You can copy perfectly Rafaello, but it’s Rafaello, and it’s something that don’t give nothing to you and to him.
Ivan Cocker
You’re just replicating in a way. So that’s something It happens that it’s like art when there’s something in fashion, let’s call it in fashion and someone is following so it’s easy that that there is a fellowship of style But creativity Needs to be pushed. So that’s the winning. That’s the winning part of a model. So someone needs to go to that experiment. It can go bad in a way, but you learn from experimenting. I think that’s something that needs to be pushed.
Fabrizio RUSTO Russo
Yeah, absolutely. It’s something that you go as an academic way. So you have to copy, you have to understand, have to do your… Something that I always say to my students is do your own mistakes. If you don’t do mistakes, it’s impossible to improve, you know, because you don’t know where to go. So really It’s something that you need to do. And when you learn step by step by a video, you can’t do mistake. So try to understand the video and replicate it in at your own. Something that you can do it easily. Like reading a book, you remember something you can explain it.
Ivan Cocker
So obviously what we’re speaking here is we’re discussing a little bit master level. In standard level you accept this. So you have to accept that modelers are following other styles, like, let’s call it copying in a way. But you still see in standard level, in all these years I’ve seen pieces in standard level that are leveled in creativity much more than master level.
Fabrizio RUSTO Russo
Yeah.
Robert
Well, maybe it’s also because of the… If you’re a standard or just a beginning modeler, you like to try things more easily than when you’re a master, because as a master, if you really enter competitions, you probably know what people want to see and what to expect.
Ivan Cocker
That’s true, that’s true.
Robert
And as a novice or somebody that doesn’t care, just wants to do his own thing or her own thing, it can be refreshing actually. Standard classes can be very refreshing to look at. And sadly enough, they’re often overlooked. If you see, if people go to shows and they post the pictures of all the models in the competition,
Very often, if not almost always, they take the pictures of the master classes and the standard classes are often neglected. Often neglected. And that’s sometimes sad because you can find really, really nice creative pieces in the standard classes.
Chris
And sometimes you get the odd person who just doesn’t know how good they are because they don’t they don’t think “I’m a master”. So they enter standard and then, you know, they get a gold that year, their masters next year. So that’s fine. But not many.
Robert
Yep. Yep. Depends on the competition. We require that.
Chris
But I mean, it’s people self -select, don’t they? I think beginners usually know they’re beginners. Maybe they might go in standard, but people have to choose whether they think they’re a standard or a master when they enter.
Robert
Our beginners classes are really for the true beginners. And that’s why we have one ordinance class for beginners. in that class, you can put anything from aircraft, ships, tanks, robots, whatever you want. And in figures, we also have a mixed beginners class for historical and figure painting, because it’s really for the true beginners in the hobby.
Chris
All right, now the criticism that gets levelled either at the show by people who don’t know what they’re talking about. I mean, by people who haven’t been to the show, is that the basic modelling skills and the basics of modelling don’t matter that it’s all about a flashy paint job. What would you say to that?
Ivan Cocker
I totally don’t agree with that. construction and any skills that involves. especially in ordinance, each judge will look into that. nothing is overlooked. For sure nothing is overlooked.
Robert
It’s part of the criteria that we have. And although the criteria that we have are not like a sacred book and the judges don’t follow it under a microscope, for them it’s just a tool, if there is anything. yeah, construction is really part of the judging, at least in ordinance it is.
Ivan Cocker
We don’t use torches, that’s for sure. To highlight and see the… And check the underside. So, but… Obviously, obviously, in each class it’s different. So…
And each team of judges knows how to check things. let’s say you don’t expect bad construction in masterclass for sure. So why you’re in that masterclass? So that’s why you’re in the masterclass. So you have master’s or the skills by that time. So obviously there are different criteria that are looked into. But nothing is overlooked. I think that it’s the only time that judges can penalize, when you have bad construction.
Robert
Well, when it’s very blatant mistakes, then it would cost you points.
Ivan Cocker
Exactly. But obviously, it’s a choice. I think we have to also say how open system works, because some people don’t understand it. Each modeler has his own gallery in a way. normally in its category, you put X amounts of pieces. So sometimes you have three or four pieces in that section. And the judges look at that. That’s why we say sometimes you’re not competing one next to the other but you’re competing by yourself in a way, so the first thing is what what judges do is check that gallery practically and pick your best model out of that. It’s rarely done but sometimes it happens they select all the all the pieces and you’re awarded for all the pieces
But that’s how it works. So people need to understand, model makers need to understand how open system works in a way.
Chris
And you’re judging against the standard of the hobby at the moment, not against the guy next to you basically.
Ivan Cocker
So it depends on each category. So if we’re speaking master level, we know that the standard is getting high each year. The benchmark is always being lifted. The bar is getting up. yes, to reach that expectations, we know the standard. That’s why how it works out, how you select the judges.
In each category we know that all of them are master modelers. So that’s one aspect how we managed to get the standard in a way. So their positive thinking in a way and their contribution reflects in the standard. Each section has their particular modelers. So let’s say if the team is judging dioramas, they are all dioramists. You don’t have someone that doesn’t do dioramas and you’re judging dioramas for example, so that’s something we really work hard and we really push so that’s how we managed to get the standard in a way
Fabrizio RUSTO Russo
I, think in painting, painting standard probably is one of the most complicated category because when you have selected the goals that probably are easier than in other categories, the level, the rest of the displays are all on the same level. So it’s not so easy to find why you choose silver or bronze for that display or figure. as a judge you have to be concrete in this kind of system and this is not so easy so it’s really a complicated category. In the same category but in master, painting master for example, is complicated because of the numbers. Numbers in SMC are huge. So when you are on, I don’t know, 80 or 100 displays, it’s complicated to keep in mind what you have done on gold and why. Because the most important part is why you gave gold to one figure and not on the other one because they’re all beautiful. So you have to understand why you are giving gold, why you giving silver and why you have a later why you have to move something. So it’s very, very harsh to stay on the side of a table. So you learn when you judge a contest like this, all the contests, but in particular a strong contest like SMC, you learn a lot in models. So it’s very, very important to have the opportunity to judge. So when I talk to Robert to select some judges, I ask for some new names because I want to improve and increase the number of people who have the opportunity to understand what it means to be on the other side of the table because you will learn a lot, will improve your, also your style. To me was so important to improve. My first judgment in an important show was Le Petit Soldat and I was one of the first fantasy painter invited by the organiser so it was a shock for me because I’ve seen something like that. yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it’s very important to improve our list of judges. Also because if not, the system and the methods are always the same. So we have to change.
Robert
Yes.
Chris
What do you think makes someone a good judge Fabrizio?
Fabrizio RUSTO Russo (38:23.882)
That’s a strong question. I think you have to be sincere and try to be honest, you know, but also something that you don’t have to do, is punish another artist because it’s not something that comes from your style. It’s so important because sometimes if you don’t recognize something that you do easily, that’s not good. No. It’s something wrong in this case. So it could be done in a different way. it’s fantastic. It’s another fantastic way to have the same results.
It’s very complicated to select medals. So, sincerity is the most important part of your job. I think.
Robert
and open -minded.
Fabrizio RUSTO Russo
An open mind. Yeah, yeah, sure. Sure, Yeah, that’s what I said. We are static. We need also to… open our minds too.
Chris
Now you both run pretty small judging teams in comparison to some other events. How do you get so many models judged in what, four or five hours at SMC?
Robert (
What do mean small?
Chris
Well, I mean, there are some shows, which I don’t want to name, but they’ve got like 300 judges. And I mean, how many judges do you have at SMC?
Robert
Okay, yeah they have three, two hundred judges. Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.
I think we have 56 or so this year. Without these two guys.
Chris
But you’re judging two and a half thousand models roughly, something like that.
Robert
Well, it’s five, six hours. It’s a job, trust me. It’s beyond hobby. It’s beyond hobby to get that straight.
Ivan Cocker
Basically have to talk to us after we are finished so we are drained completely drained out with our eyes color red
Chris
I think the judges are usually the only people you don’t see in the bar afterwards because they just gone to bed. Just worn out.
Robert
Some of them actually do, yeah.
Fabrizio RUSTO Russo
Yeah.
Ivan Cocker
That’s true. That’s true.
Robert
that’s also the reason why we sometimes switch, I mean we don’t have the same judges every year and also that’s one of the reasons because I also want them to enjoy the show for once.
Chris
56 judges doing 2300 to 2500 models in six hours. How do you do it?
Ivan Cocker
You have to be a judge to understand that. (haha)
Robert
If there’s a display, you look at all the pieces in the display and then you select as a team, you decide, okay, that one is getting the award or what Ivan said before, all three, four or 10 pieces in that, so you can award the whole display. But no, no, the idea is that they look at all the models.
I think maybe Fabrizio can enlighten that, I think people often see, I think the one that really stands out, often you can see that one immediately. Yeah, but not always, but you can.
Fabrizio RUSTO Russo
Yeah, it’s bad to say, but it’s easy to find the golds in a show. Maybe you have to check two times to be sure, but it’s the easiest part because there a few, not 2000, there are only a few.
Robert
Yes.
Fabrizio
So it’s easy to find your favourite displays in categories. So you check all, when I start, I check all the displays and then I decide which are the golds. And then go down, silver and bronze. Then check once again to be sure.
Why? Because sometimes there are figures that are not exactly gold or not exactly silver or bronze, so you have to decide in another part of the judgement. You turn back many times on each display.
Robert
And how do your judges work, Ivan?
Ivan
So, similar perception, but it’s always worked in a team. Sometimes it is very difficult between, I think most arguments are to select. So sometimes it takes time there to select from a display. And when you’re part of the team, you learn a lot, you learn a lot because something we try to do is combine different mentalities, different judges.
Robert
Yes, that’s right.
Ivan Cocker
So that works out quite good so that you have different reasoning and different opinions. Because if you have three judges that have similar opinions, it’s not always the result might be positive. So when you have different mentalities, you create discussion between them. And so that’s how they select the best out of that category.
And some people think that there might be someone who’s leading up and trying to influence the others, but I don’t recall that from any teams that I have seen so far. You have people trying to come up with their own opinions, but when you start hearing the discussions, it’s a real learning factor.
For me, honestly, judging is a learning experience so far.
Robert
And that’s also where the head judges come in, that if there is a discussion, and for example, they really hear that some of the things don’t make any sense, or if there is really a discussion about real topics, they are the first ones that have to make a final decision or drop some ideas of how people can maybe change their perspective into a more workable way or…
Ivan Cocker
Exactly.
Robert
I mean, also being a head judge is not something ceremonial.
Ivan Cocker
No, not at all.
Robert
It’s also a job.
Ivan Cocker
Tough one. Especially when you have certain arguments. A very tough one.
Chris
I’ve seen it happen where we haven’t agreed on a team and Ivan’s come over to straighten us out. And you always do it the same way. You don’t tell us what to do. You remind us what the criteria is and you remind us what we’re looking for. And usually that’s enough between us then we can make a decision. A little nudge back onto the, you know, onto how to assess it.
Ivan
My philosophy is always I’m trying to see that the judges see the positive thing in the modeler, in that model. So you don’t really like, I don’t like to see someone trying to penalize that model in a way, or minimize it. So I try to bring up the judges, feel something for it and try to push it to benefit to the modeler. If you’re in doubt in a certain way to certain aspects, give benefit to the modeler. That’s something I try to push very often. And I tried so far not to influence. I never influence judges. I try to see what they try to come up with in a way.
Chris
How do you do that many models in six hours?
Robert
one of the things I always say in the judges briefing is that the judging are here to judge the models. Sometimes I’ve been at shows where they have been very cozy gathering the judging team and start elaborating on the model about what brand it is and how they did it.
Stick to the job and do whatever is necessary to get the job done as fast as possible, but in a thorough way. So try to avoid the small talk because I’ve seen it happen. I’ve judged at many shows as well and I’ve witnessed it and it just takes up a lot of time that you don’t want to spend.
Well, you want to spend it in the bar afterwards, not during the judging. That’s one thing, from my side. I don’t know if the other gentlemen have another idea, but yeah.
Fabrizio
No, no, it’s correct, it’s correct.
Chris (49:34.188)
I think you’re kind of saying the same thing. I don’t want to say professionalism because it’s not a paid job, but yeah, you use your time efficiently and you do it because your judges know what they’re doing. They do it quickly and they do it well and that’s how it works. What do you think Fabrizio?
Fabrizio
Yeah, it’s something, everything here is complicated. So it’s really part of our, complicated our life. So it’s okay. But I must agree with Ivan, when he said that you have to push, you have to push to find something better, to give more quality to the show, to each modeler. So I think in a contest like this, little details or a first impression is something that gives you the general idea. So if the first impression of a model is that you want to understand it better and attract you, it’s one of your favourite models. And then you search for something, you understand it better and better and so it grows up also your way of judgment in that display and all the other display related because every contest is different and so each model can be judged in a different way in a different contest so you have to focus on that moment it’s so important. So the first impression is very, very important when you judge.
Robert
The other thing is, although part of the judges, especially in the, or specifically in the figure part of the contest, they’re professionals. But at the end of the day, we’re all hobbyists and we all in love with the hobby and we love to see awesome models. And that’s where it becomes difficult not to elaborate on how wow something is, but stick to the job and that’s so you have to be a little bit forgiving of course but yeah we still have to push the judges every now and then to move onwards yeah
Ivan
That’s true, that’s true. In fact, judging is something almost, I say, personal in a way. You’re so intimate with the model. Sometimes you have the model in your hand. it’s quite something in a way. So that’s true. That’s true.
Robert
I recall times when I judged and I saw fantastic models and I kept getting back to it, you know, five, six times to just admire it.
Chris
It is a privilege, judging.
Robert
It is.
Ivan
Yes, it is.
Chris
like you were saying earlier, that you’re looking at it. The only person who’s looked at that model arguably more closely than you have, was the person who made it. No one else has looked at it as hard as that.
Robert
Yep, that’s true.
Chris
And I really don’t like audience chosen awards. You some shows have it where people cast votes on which model wins. No one looking at those models is gonna look at it as closely as a judge does. And you see things when you’re judging that people walking past probably might not pick up. Particularly, you know, it tends to be the more showy models that win those things.
Robert
Yeah, but a public’s choice or whatever you call it, you know, can also have its charm. I know usually it’s the biggest and the most colorful piece on the table and not necessarily the best, but I do recall, I think I mentioned it in another podcast as well. We once had a Best of Show by Aitor Azkue away from Spain, big aircraft diorama, and that one also got selected.
We had the kids, the children at the show, they could vote for the children’s favourite or something and they chose that one. Maybe that was a lucky draw, but it was a good choice. It was a good choice. Yeah, you do, you do.
Fabrizio
Wow.
Chris
But you do learn a lot as well looking at these things.
Fabrizio
choice is also influenced by internet, Instagram.
Ivan
Yes.
Robert
and friends that are present at the show.
Ivan
Exactly.
Chris
There’s a consistent standard at the show. How do you maintain that standard in the quality of the results year on year?
Robert
Is there a consistency? I don’t know.
Chris
I think there is, think in the contest, certainly the contest results, they’re very consistent.
Robert
I think it all comes down to selecting the right judges. And you know, it’s not always perfect. I admit, I’m the first one to admit that, but I think it’s the way that we select the judges because we’re very particular on that. We really want to have people that know what they’re talking about being a good painter or a good model that doesn’t make them, per se, a good judge. We’ve also had that experience, but, you know, I mean, we’ve had a lot of judges over the years and, like I said, there’s several reasons why we change them every now and then, but, I think, yeah, I think it’s just the way that we select the judge. We don’t select judges at the door. I mean, it’s not that somebody comes in, “We need a judge for the ships. Can you spare a minute of your time?” No, we don’t. I mean, we invite the judges months before.
Also for practical reasons as well, because they have to get their hotel and get arranged on a trip and blah blah blah blah. There’s a lot to arrange for people. But yeah, I think that’s one of the reasons.
Chris
but you also know you’re gonna have the judges you need on the day. If you select them, they’ve confirmed, then you know.
Robert
Yeah, well, there’s always the occasional person that has to cancel for whatever reason. I everything can happen, you know. I think we all know health issues or family matters or whatever. Anything can happen, but yeah. So in that case, we have to find a replacement judge, but even then we are very picky.
Chris
Now, Robert, you said before on the podcast, the Sprue Cutters Union, I think when we had you on, that you started SMC to make the show you wanted shows to be. What was it that you wanted to do differently?
Robert
my God. Don’t get me started on that. Well, first of all, think, and I actually hate this, but to say this because I hate the word, because everything has to be an experience these days. Even doing the grocery shopping. But I think that’s one of the things. It has to be an experience. I expect people to come over for two days. Well, at that time, still one day, but two days, I expect them to spend a lot of money to get that to the show because they have to travel from far or from near, doesn’t matter, but they still have to travel. They have to pay to get in. They have to pay to enter the competition. So you want to offer people, well, you want an experience.
In my opinion, they have to leave the show with the idea that they still have missed a part of it because there wasn’t time enough to see everything there is to see or to experience. And I think that it took a while to get there, of course. mean, it wasn’t there from day one. But I think nowadays I hear from a lot of people that they spend two full days at the show and still have the feeling that they missed a lot of it. And for me, that’s great. Not for them, but for me, that’s great because it will probably mean they will come back next year. Come on, we have people coming over from as far as New Zealand, from Japan, Taiwan, China, from the States, from South America.
I mean, it’s not just slapping a couple of tables in the room and putting models on it like some other shows unfortunately still do after so many years. It’s, you know, you want to offer something.
And I think, well, I think it all comes down to that we care for the people that come to the show and we respect them. And if that, whether those are the vendors or the visitors or the contest participants or the clubs, and of course we cannot keep everybody happy, we’re not a pizza. And there will always be somebody that has a complaint about one thing or the other, but we respect them.
With respect, I also mean that if people enter the competition, we ask the judges to really look at all the models that those people enter. I mean, we ask them to pay for it. So at least we have to give them the courtesy to look at their models, even if they’re not that good, doesn’t matter. I think that’s one of the other reasons that one of the things that I try to change is that we have clear rules and criteria for the competition. although, and again, they’re not all carved in stone and things can be a bit, how to say, can be a bit gray sometimes, even for judges, but at least we try to give guidelines for everybody. And I also realized that not everybody reads it.
And that’s what Fabrizio said earlier, if you come prepared to the show, you read the criteria because then you know what is asked in that particular class, what your model should live up to, to some extent. And if your model doesn’t take the majority of the boxes of those criteria, then you might consider putting them in a different class. I mean, yeah, that’s the way it is.
I think the whole appearance of the show, I mean, we cover all the trading tables with the black table collage. We do that the same with the competition area. I think we have a proper lighting system over the models. We changed the lights last year to give a better colour rendition, which is especially an important aspect for the figures. We have proper display tables. They are not too low, not too high. I think unless you’re in a wheelchair, might be issue sometimes.
I think the whole show, it’s…Although it’s, it’s very busy and it’s really full with vendors. It’s still spacious because the aisles in general between all the rows of tables are quite good compared to a of other shows. So you can still breathe every now and then. And I think one of the major aspects that we have is that we have an unequalled number and variety of vendors at the show. I mean, this year, I think we have 172 different companies there divided over 150 something stands. So some shares stand, but there’s really that many different companies.
Chris
And a lot of it’s really unique kind of, for want of a better phrase, boutique business. Yeah.
Robert
Yeah, there was a lot. think there are a lot of also like startups and smaller companies, especially in the figure, because especially in the figure branch are a lot of manufacturers nowadays. And, and they all want an opportunity to present themselves at the show, which is quite remarkable, actually, because if you really look at it, you I mean, internet is a big is the thing. I mean, people learn on internet people buy mainly on internet. And someone once said to me that shows are dying. And maybe some of them are. But I think shows are still still important for people to actually see models live instead of on the screen, which is still a big, which is still a big difference. And, and I think a lot of people want to see what I want to have in their hands what they buy before they buy it still.
So yeah, that’s also one of the reasons that we have so many vendors, I think.
Chris
Now you mentioned registration. Registration closes in two weeks now, three weeks?
Robert
October 6th 10 PM Central European Time. I have to say that. Central European Time because I think last year somebody from America, from Australia complained that they couldn’t register anymore.
Chris
Yeah, I get that when I put this show out, the Australians say, “why isn’t it up yet?”
“Because you live in the future”.
Yeah, they live in the future. Exactly. So I would recommend, not for us, but I would recommend people to pre -register because it saves you a lot of time on the day itself on Saturday. Because at one o ‘clock we close the whole registration system because you can enter on the day itself, but then your registration costs you 20 euros. Doesn’t matter how many models and how many classes, it’s just 20 euros. But if you use the pre -registration system and you pay before 10 PM CET on October 6th, you only pay 12.50 Euros. So regardless of the number of models and classes. So there is a 7 .50 advantage which you can spend on, or a cheese sandwich, whatever.
Fabrizio
beers.
Chris
3D printed accessories.
Robert
yeah, yeah, yeah, haha
Chris
Joking aside though, I mean, I’ve always pre -registered since you brought it in, I think. And when you get there, the queue’s really long and you might think, why did I bother? But that queue moves fast because the pre -register system is really smooth.
Robert
Yeah, well, have before we had two lines for the pre -registered models and we now we have three rows. So if you come into the company, so if you pre -registered and you come into the registration room, just look a little bit up and there are three banners hanging and then you have we have the first letters of the surname. So you have probably A to whatever and then. So we have three different lanes on Alphabet of your surname so please look at that and then you find the right line because you might be standing in the wrong queue.
Chris
No forms to fill out, just put your sticker on your model, put it in the right place and you’re off perusing the competition or the traders or whatever else you want to fill your time with. So definitely worth doing ahead of time.
Robert
Yeah. Yeah. And for the people that attend the early morning workshops that start at 10 o ‘clock or whatever, they can come in at 9 .30, so a little bit earlier than the rest and then bring the models to the table on Saturday. Because we do not, we don’t have, we’re not ready yet on Friday to have models or anybody from the registration team actually on Friday present to, so you cannot bring the models on Friday.
Chris
All right, , all the information for that is at http://scalemodelchallenge.com . And you will also find all the competition classes, the criteria, and as much information as you could possibly want to decide where your work of art is gonna be put this year in the contest. So go along and read all of that and you’ll get all the information you need to know what to expect. So there’s no excuse. All right, now this is the bit where I always ask, any other thing I should be asking you about, guys?
Robert
Well, I have some things to say about what people can expect more this year. Well, except for what I just mentioned. Well, we have some new vendors present. There’s also a launch of a new aircraft model brand with a quite extraordinary stand, as far as I can tell from now. That’s going to be pretty interesting. We have a discussion panel as well on Saturday led by Tue Kae. So I think that will be very controversial knowing Tue. And he has invited some people and we will announce it shortly about what’s going to happen and what he’s going to talk about.
There’s a speed painting contest as well on Saturday afternoon when the judging starts because then the competition room closes for visitors. So we have a speed painting competition on the main contest which is run by our friends from Chestnut Inc. And they have some lovely prizes and they will put up their advertisements also very shortly. We have three Dutch artists that are
exhibiting their work. We have Harry Arling, aka Kosmotroniks (Check out Harry’s Model Philosopher interview here https://modelphilosopher.com/kosmotroniks-with-harry-arling/ ), for those who went to the World Model Expo, the guy with the weird helmet and the whole contraption on it. But he makes really, really great stuff. He has an exposition as well. We have two local guys. We have Wijnand Riese, who is actually a cinematographer.
but he’s also an artist, he’s a canvas artist, but he also makes miniature buildings, completely scratch built from carton, which he’s exhibiting at the show. But he’s also, well, he loves Japan. He was married to a Japanese wife, he has some of his Japanese paintings and other paintings up as well. And we have Joris van Oss, who is a writer and a terribly funny guy as well. And he makes miniature landscapes and box dioramas. And he is also exhibiting at the show. And all these guys are making stuff that is more or less related to a hobby, but not really our hobby.
But what I really want to show people is that there are more ways to look at the miniature world. And this is something that we want to expand more into next year as well.
We have a wonderful, wonderful magazine that we are giving for free to all the visitors at SMC this year. And it’s a magazine that was very skillfully made by some guy from England, by Chris Meddings. And there are contributions from a lot of people that we’ve asked to write something about why they think SMC is show that everybody should go to. So it’s basically one big advertisement for SMC without becoming too cheesy, actually, because I think the stories in there are pretty good. And I didn’t ask people to be only positive, but the thing is they all are. So that’s whole thing. And of course, from every contributor, there’s a gallery of their work in there.
Chris
There’s some really beautiful work in there. It’s such a joy to do layouts working with such fantastic pictures. Really beautiful stuff. And all the stories, they’re from the heart, aren’t they? All personal stories about their experience of SMC.
Robert
Yeah. And some of them are very some of them reading some of these stories back, I became very emotional about it as well because, no, because there were some memories from the past that are really and some were just fun and probably nobody will understand what they’re writing about because it’s really an incorrect joke. yeah, it’s really but it’s a beauty. It was a beautiful magazine.
I think I almost 800 kilograms of magazines three or four times because it was delivered unannounced at our doorstep. I wasn’t at home, so Margot was the lucky one. So when I came home, the whole living room was full with boxes with books. But it’s really a magazine printed on high quality paper, so that’s really fantastic.
And we have a commemorative piece by Karol Rudyk Art. The concept art is by Paul Bonner and the 3D sculpting was done by Isabella Barone. It’s a stunning piece.
And Paul Bonner himself will be there at the show as well. Why do I forget him? Paul is also painting miniatures and he has his stuff on display at the show. in the judges’ cabinets or in between the judges’ cabinets,
Paul is also exhibiting his painting endeavours, so I think that will be very worthwhile looking at. That’s really fantastic too, yeah.
Fabrizio
It’s a milestone because Paul Bonner is a myth.
Robert
Yeah, I know, I know, I know, know. Yeah, that’s it. I’m really looking forward to that. He’s really a nice bloke to talk to as well. yeah, there’s another thing I wouldn’t like to say about the hotel reservations because usually at this time people start cancelling hotel rooms because they cannot come. At the SMC website, there is a page that says, where is it traveling to?
You can find the link to booking the hotel rooms and I really recommend people to keep trying it because luckily it works with an automatic system nowadays again. So I think it would be a good idea that if you still need a room or have booked a room outside of the venue, you can still cancel that when you have a room at the hotel.
I think it will be worthwhile to check our website every now and then and go to the page that says plan your visit. You can find it on the homepage two or three times and you can click and then you can find the link to the reservation system of the venues hotel. I suggest you keep trying it because literally every year there will be like 25, 30 rooms that are not attended to at the end because people do cancel every year.
About the competition app, Emperor, we get a lot of emails now that people say that they try to log in with last year’s password. The thing is, we never keep any data because of GDPR, security, whatever. If you enter the competition, if you want to enter the competition now, or register your models, you have to make a new account every year.
Just saying, just saves me a lot of emails if people hear this.
Chris
To be honest, it’s really quick and easy. It’s easier creating an account than it is to remember your password. So just create an account.
Guys, anything else?
Ivan
I think it’s an experience you can’t miss. That’s what I say. For me it’s a pilgrimage. That’s what I call it.
Fabrizio
Yeah, something that you can’t miss, so I agree, I totally agree. See you there!
Robert
Yeah, see you there, yeah.
Chris
All right, well, we’ll all be there, so you better come too. All right, thanks everyone. I really appreciate you taking the time on a Monday evening to talk this through. If anyone’s got any questions, do look up scalemodelchallenge.com or go to the Scale Model Challenge Facebook page or Instagram and contact Robert and the team
All right. Thanks, everyone. I really appreciate it. Take care.
Robert
Thank you. Bye bye.
Ivan
Bye bye.
That was a great chat with Robert, Fabrizio and Ivan, and I very much enjoyed it. Don’t forget to register your models at Scalemodelchallenge.com right now, and as Robert said, keep trying that hotel link to get your room on site. Staying nearby is great, but staying on site is highly desirable, trust me.
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Over the last few episodes I’ve had a number of messages and emails I would like to share.
Raphael Shelton writes:
I was amazed by the Marijn and Barry episode. To hear barry talk through some of these questions was fantastic. And every time I hear Marijn talk, I want to just absorb everything he has to say.
Just when I thought you had reached the peak of episodes that would interest me personally, you have Harry Arling. I’ve only known him from his stuff on Facebook, so getting a peek behind the curtain was a treat!
Keep up the great work. I appreciate the thoughtfulness and “pretension” of the Model Philosopher. I really think that these are questions and ideas worth digging into.
I have some ideas about the basic Why We Model. I’d make it a Venn Diagram of a few circles:
1. Humans are built to create. (Regardless of one’s opinion on the source of that drive).
2. As children, play allows us to learn to navigate the world around us. It is how we internalize things in a safe way.
3. Ownership/Power – By making scale models we are able to exercise power and ownership, even if only in a totemic way, over the real things. Especially if those things don’t exist in the real world. I don’t mean ownership/power in a bad way.
In my opinion we create models because of the overlap of these three. You could argue that 2 & 3 are really the same thing. Consider this my draft thesis.
Cheers!
Raphael
I think Raphael has some very astute observations about why we do this, and I think having some control over something in our lives is a big part of it.
Rui Matos writes
Excellent interview/talk with Harry Arling!
Having been following Harry works for a long time, have “pested” him a few times, and one thing I regret a lot, is to have failed to buy the book of Kosmotronics!
Not being Art (says who?), not being Scale Modelling (says who?) one thing is certain about Harry’s works:
– They are very refreshing, colourful and always make me smile!
Thank you Chris, and hank you, Harry Arling!
Chris Becker, AKA Beckers Models, writes
Really enjoyed that one Chris, and it spurred me to have a little discussion about “modelling/art” on my own channel. That joy of creating something is really the highlight for me and Harry articulated it quite well!
Chris has done an excellent video on his channel about this, look up Beckers Models on youtube for his recent video on modelling and art. I don’t 100% agree with his definition of art, but as there is no definitive definition, its as valid as mine, or anyne elses and Chris presents it in a thorough and well constructed argument, all while demasking a model! Philosophy and ASMR, whats not to like?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb1AINOtZvw
Kostas Papadimitriou writes
Very interesting conversation, thank you both (Marijn and Barry) and of course Chris also.
I have some strong objections on THE rule (never putting something parallel to the edge of your base), which is IMHO the most flawed rule, although it works (as flawed as the thirds rule for two dimensional works, which also works). Of course I’ ve been observing this rule in my dioramas and dioramists are trained to view parallel compositions as wrong even when they are not. To make it short and avoiding writing a complete article on my own, I would redraw THE rule upside down: non parallel arrangement is an easy way for faux dynamism that’s why I view it as flawed, if a parallel arrangement doesn’t work on a particular composition, then the problem is with all the other elements of the composition (detail, colour, contrast, relation of elements) and not with the arrangement, you should use non parallel arrangement only when you can justify its use and when all other means to give dynamism to the composition have failed. The only reason that non parallel arrangement works is because we tend to put the base parallel to the table and the viewer. That’s just my two cent (or half cent). Thank you for your time.
I’m not sure I agree with Kostas, it seems to rely on the assumption that parallel composition is a default and deviation from the default must be justified. But it is not. You could just as easily argue that diagonal composition is the default and deviation to parallel must be justified, but agan, it’s a point of view and all I really want to do with this show is put forward different points of view and share them with you, the listeners.
Kostas, if you are listening, I want to thank you for your regular contributions to the model philosopher blog in the comments sections, I always enjoy your replies
Now, I want to thank our Patrons, and everyone that supports the show. You can support the show at patreon.com/themodelphilosopher, or by leaving a review for the show on your podcast app of choice. You can also help by introducing others to the model philosopher.
A final piece of news, you can preorder ITA3 products for SMC! Just visit insidethearmour.com and email me your order before Monday 23rd September, Ill invoice you and your order will be waiting at SMC. Check out the newly released items including MG34, MG42, British tank spwage bin latches, hatch latches and pyrene extinguishers and much more at insidethearmour.com
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