Learning and Development in Modelling, with Robert Lane

This episode’s guest on the model philosopher was sculptor, painter and miniatures company owner Robert Lane of Elan 13.

Elan 13, produce some stunning and unique historical and fantasy miniatures, and Rob is a well-known face at shows in the UK and Europe, but he’s also a former educator. And with this blend of his professional work and his professional and hobby miniature experience, I could not wait to sit him down to discuss learning and personal development in modelling.

Chris

Welcome, Robert, to the Model Philosopher.

Robert

Thank you very much. It’s a privilege to be here.

Chris

Before getting on to the main topic, which this week is going to be ‘learning and modelling’, can you tell listeners a bit about yourself and your model business??

Robert

Yes, certainly. My name’s Robert Lane and I am the owner and chief sculptor for Elan 13 Miniatures, (https://elan13.co.uk/) which is a very small company that sells model figures, from 32nd scale up to 24th scale, covering a wide range including pilots. Which is how we started our business, with World War 1 pilots and then went on to historical figures. And we’ve now introduced a science fiction range as well.

I am ancient, so I’ve been kicking around the model world for a long time. I am one of those old people who went to the first Euromilitaire when it happened. So, I’ve seen many things change over the years in model making, but my core modelling is actually figure sculpting and, very occasionally, figure painting.

Chris

And you’re a traditional hand sculptor, aren’t you, for figures?

Robert

I am a traditional hand sculptor, though I’m not a hater of digital sculpts. I know some hand sculptors feel threatened, and I do slightly feel threatened, and if I was younger and I was doing this and, you know, I wanted to earn a decent wage out of it, I would do digital sculpting because that is, I think, where largely the future is, and I think certainly where the Industry future is, but I enjoy pushing putty around and occasionally stabbing myself with a scalpel so I should stick at that until I until the eyes give out and the hands start shaking.

Chris

I don’t really want to get onto the topic of 3D, but I think it’s still true now that 3D figures aren’t that much of a threat to hand sculpted figures yet because you it’s not enough just to know how to operate the CAD and how to make a vaguely human form, or to modify a stock human CAD model which you can get, and which a lot of people do, change a few things and do this and that you still need to be good at anatomy, at character, and all the things that you have to learn to be a hand sculptor and I think, whether you’re doing it by hand or doing it digitally, you still have to be a good sculptor.

Robert

Yeah, I totally agree with that. But I do think that there are now some very good digital sculptors, most of you who were traditional sculptors beforehand. But there are some people producing some superb work and from a retailer’s point of view, you can get things in various scales and make busts and figures in various sizes, so you’ve got a larger option to sell, So I can see it from that point of view, and I can see why several of the companies have gone into using digital sculpts as well as  traditional sculptors, there aren’t many in the figure world that have just gone digital, but there are some. I mean, obviously the bigger companies have. But the thing I envy, And I’m not saying it’s easy is being able to do things like a mail shirt from a Norman in the detail that you can do digitally. I’m not saying that that’s an easy thing to do, but you can do it.

I think it’s moved on enormously from the initial digital stuff. That was very bland and very much lacked character. I think there is a danger where scanning is involved, which can work really well. And some of the stuff that has been done scanned is great but, if you’re just scaling down a scan, you lose a lot of the character from a piece, and I think that has improved enormously. Now I think there’s some sculptors now, Nello, [Rivieccio] his work is just superb, and I think that as that carries on, It will expand more, it’s bound to.

Chris

There’s a guy as well. I can’t remember his name. I think he’s in Hong Kong or something. Just 1/16th figures. [the name that eluded me at the time was Jason Studio – http://jason-studio.com] And he does it really, really well. But you know that there are some people out there who are really good at it. But I think what differentiates them is the same thing that differentiates good hand sculptures is having that eye and having that ability to make it believable and something well-proportioned or something with character. But also, I think the problem with scanning is it’s too realistic. I think with sculpting you have to add a certain amount of exaggeration to things like a fold, or what have you, to translate and to make them paintable at a smaller scale. And if you just scan something it’s too. Too realistic in a way.

Robert

Absolutely. I couldn’t agree more with that. I mean, certainly if you look at most or many hand- sculpted pieces and if you blew it up to even half size, but certainly life-size, they’d be grotesques. They’d look weird. It’s a bit like if you watch something on the stage and then you actually met the actor as soon as they walked off, most of them you think, well, “my God, why is their face covered in all that makeup?” Because, you know, it’s to be looked at from a distance and sculpting stuff is the same, you have to put more detail into it or more character into it or else it just wouldn’t show at all. And I think that that can be an issue with scanning unless it’s titillated. If you can do that, I assume.

Chris

You can. Yeah. Yeah, I wonder though. It relies on the company to think that that’s necessary to do.

Robert

And I think one thing that has moved on, what the companies are realising is when they’re offering the various size options, they used to just have a single digital sculpt and they’d whack it up to 1/16th scale and they whack it down to a 28, or 32, millimetre figure. And what looked good in the scale that it was originally discussed for, looked lacking in detail in the big scale and over detailed and didn’t really work in the small scale. But they’ve realised that now, and there’s a lot of work doing in with sculptors adapting to make the different things. So, the product they’re producing is much better. But I don’t think that that the hand sculpture is quite dead yet. I think there’s a bit of life in it yet.

Chris

I don’t know why, but I still prefer it. There’s something about it. The signature of the sculptor is in it. If you see what I mean, I suppose it’s in the digital sculpt, but it just feels more, I don’t know, more human, but anyway, we’re not here to talk about sculpting, unfortunately.

Robert

We’re not.

Chris

Now you had another life as well before, or next to the business, which was a professional life as an educator.

Robert

Yes, I worked for 26 years, in primary education in the UK as a teacher, and then as a head teacher. So that involved obviously working with children. Actually, I worked with children from the age of three up to the age of 11, but then also a lot of work with adult training and working with teachers to train them and other members of staff as well. So yeah, that’s the sort of that’s really why we’re talking today or that’s the core of what we’re talking about today.

Chris

That interests me because in in my former professional life, (Which we won’t talk about because going it’s very boring) we did look a bit at becoming trainers and something that’s stuck with me is the different ways people learn. Now, obviously I assume through your experience, both as a teacher and instructing or managing other teachers, that you’re very familiar with sort of different methods of imparting information and the different ways people pick it up. So how do they differ? What are the different ways people can learn?

Robert

A few years ago, now, there was a big push on common learning styles which was called VAK Visual learners, Auditory learners, and Kinaesthetic learners.

A visual learner is one that gets information mostly from looking at stuff by looking at pictures, responds well to things like colours and mind maps, the visual is what stimulates them to learn.

Auditory learners. It’s pretty obvious from the name, are people who can listen well, and absorb information, by listening, but that also would like to retell it, as that’s a way of the information sinking in.

Kinaesthetic learners are those that like the hands-on, sort of physically-doing-things-themselves, way of learning. Trying it and physically doing it.

And there was a push that everyone was only one of those. You never used anything else, which was the way then, as I’m afraid to say, in a lot of educational theory. Then you know, it is poo-pooed in the future.
Most people have a leaning towards one of those more than the others, but actually use all of them. And unfortunately, most people think “I’m not an auditory learner”, because they remember sitting in the back of an incredibly dull geography lesson and learning nothing and saying, well, “I don’t learn anything that way.” But of course, we do all learn. We all use all of those ways of learning to an extent, but there will be  “I know I am a better kinaesthetic learner in that I like to try things and do things”. And I think a lot of model makers would probably say that’s the truth for them as well. But they’ll learn other ways as well.

Chris

I’ve noticed it because in modelling, the main ways we learn are from books, blogs, Internet discussions and what have you, which I suppose is like the reading visual in a way, like being shown how to do it by a demonstration. And then there’s the workshop where you’re kind of hands on or you find out about a technique, but you don’t really learn it. You learn it by implementing it on your own model.

How do you think it applies to our personal development in modelling or picking up new techniques?

Robert

If we come on in a minute to the different ways that we can. I think the big thing that’s different from children with adults is that with adults all learning is based on building on your prior experience, and I think that that’s something that we perhaps sometimes forget, you’ve come from a starting point and usually that’s it. Very rare that you start and you haven’t got any idea. You’ve never done anything to do this before, so you learn you can learn from that. The key thing is, if you’re learning a new skill or a developing skill is there are sort of stages to go through and I think sometimes we get frustrated if you can’t do it immediately, but it’s you’ve always gotta go through that practise phase of trying something and is it working?

I know something we’ll talk about later, is getting feedback on how you’re doing. I mean you can review it yourself, but if possible, also getting feedback from others. Then applying that skill and saying “OK, right, I’ve practised it. I’ve given it a go” and then reviewing that again. And saying, “how did that go?” And then and then the whole circle spins around again and it is that sort of rotation of learning and developing.

We do sometimes think we can just do it, and “I’ve watched the video”, or “I’ve been to the class” or “I’ve read the book I can now do this” and of course it doesn’t work like that at all because life isn’t like that. It’s that micro learning, you know, in small manageable chunks where you make small progress each time, and I think for many, many people you get to a skill level where the next stage is really hard to move on from and you start making those big, big leaps in in development, and that micro learning I think then, is really important.

I was talking to my son, yesterday, who is who is a gaming painter and a very good one. But he said “I don’t know. I’m not making any progress now” and I said “well you are but it’s just small. It’s small and incremental, and I think that’s the big thing”.

I hate the thing of whenever there’s the learning curve, it always goes from the bottom of the left to the top of the right, it’s a straight line. But you know, progress is always shown as this massive move upwards. Whereas the reality of progress is, it wobbles about like the British economy going up and down and up and down and all over the place. And we then feel bad when we’ve done something. And then the next time we do it, it looks dreadful and then, you know, two times later it starts to look better again and that is how progress happens in learning. It’s not a straight line. It’s a very, very wobbly up and down. And I think we do need to remember that because otherwise you can just get terribly, terribly frustrated. And I certainly have done in my in my time of painting figures and sculpting figures. You do something [and think] “Yeah that’s not bad”. Well… I never actually think anything I do is not that bad, but you’re moderately happy with it. And then the next thing you do looks like a dog’s dinner. And you wonder why. And that’s where you go back to that circle of learning. You go back and think, well, “OK, what is it? What is it that didn’t work this time? And did I get wrong?” And that can be an annoying thing to have to do. But I think that that that’s a key thing to remember. It doesn’t always go well; learning isn’t in a straight line.

Chris

It’s something I’ve noticed actually in my own learning, and not just in modelling, but in other things. Is that it’s more like at the start you have sort of a steep incline on that curve. As you learn things really fast because you don’t know anything basically. And then you find you kind of reach a plateau where you don’t seem to be learning for a while. You don’t seem to be developing. And you just kind of practise the same things again and again, and try and improve incrementally and then you have another little spike. And it goes more like that, there’s never that steep curve continuous curve.

Robert

No, absolutely. And I think we have to remember it does go down as well. It doesn’t always get better.

Chris

Yeah, sometimes, I think we’ve all looked at a model of thought. How did I do that?

But also, sometimes when you absorb something, you absorb it partially and what you need to develop further, is to go back and look at what you didn’t absorb of it, and to pick that up as well, Also, with modelling, we’re kind of in a thing where, it’s not like learning physics or maths or something where the information is, to a certain extent, absolute. What other people do, it’s  what works for them so sometimes, only part of what works for them and part of what we pick up from them, is going to work for us.

Robert

Yeah, absolutely. And I do think that actually, although we think we do it well, I think quite often we don’t look very well, and we don’t look at what is it we’ve done. I think we make a lot of assumptions, I think, and going back to what you said about the different ways that, in model making you can learn, you know, books, YouTube, etcetera. If we start at the base level of books which is, you know, the oldest way of learning. Books can be brilliant for learning, of all the ways of learning, it’s the one that you’ve got the most access to. Looking at the pictures, looking really hard at how they have they done it, you can’t quite do that on a video, on YouTube. And yes, when someone is teaching you it’s real time and that’s sort of difficult as well then. But a book gives you that and I think that’s the huge benefit of the book. And if the book is badly written or badly done, it doesn’t help.

But I mean, Danilo Cartacci’s book on figure painting, which is a superb book. The best I would think that’s been written, I go back to that many, many times just to look at how did he do that and it is the photographs that are good, the stages are well done and I just sit there looking at it and staring at things, “oh he’s done that there, put that bit of paint there on it.” you know, where’s he applied it and that, that really is helpful, I think. For me, that is the strength of using a book. Above the other media, the only problem is of course, I can’t sort of shout at Danilo and say “how did he do that? Do that again”. You know that that isn’t possible. But I think that with technology moving on, that we shouldn’t forget books as a learning medium. I’m sure you’d agree with that one, as a former publisher, but I do think they have a key part to play still.

Chris

I think the majority of modelling books aren’t actually very good. That’s the problem. I always tried to make books that people would go back to and look at again 20 years later, because we all know the books that we feel that way about, like Shep Paine’s books or the Alcorn Books on Scratchbuilding. Some books are kind of, for want of a better word, seminal; they’re so useful that they are always going to be useful to you. But there’s a lot of kind of, disposable throwaway technique books produced now, which frankly are there to sell paint.

Robert

Often yes. I would agree with that. In the past, in magazines, some really atrociously written ‘how-to’ paint something, but you know, just totally formulaic, giving you a colour mix, and that’s it. And you think “that’s not really helpful”. I remember one, an article in Military Modelling, [now defunct but once very well respected UK magazine] it was “painting a face” and the whole of one page was just covered in small photographs of this face and you think “I can see no difference in those ten photographs that you’ve taken there at all? Yeah. None whatsoever. However, close I look at it”. There’s a lot of badly done books, but there are some brilliant ones as well.

I think then going on to YouTube, the big advantage over books that YouTube gives is that you’re actually watching someone do it. Yes, there’s a lot of crap YouTube out there, but there are some superb ones and having that opportunity to see it being done, then you know, you’re using a different learning skill there because you’re actually seeing it being done and you can go and then try and reproduce it in your own home. I know that on some of the YouTube channels, there’s a Patreon, and you can actually communicate with them, but you can’t go back and say, “do that bit again”, or “look at mine. It’s not quite worked” so that that misses out on that one, which then brings you on to the demos.

I used to actually do quite a lot of sculpting demos. Before I started doing Elan 13, when I had more time. They are a good way to get the information over, but you are still a passive watcher and listen, you can ask questions. I used to get lots of fantastic questions. Usually, how long does it take? But there were a lot of interesting questions that people could ask, about different equipment or putties, but you’re not actually doing anything.

Which then takes you on to classes. When I used to work with the Basement Forum, I put on a few classes with various sculptors and painters and they can be great, particularly if you’re all doing it at the same time. Then you have got that chance to use the kinaesthetic learning, and you have got a chance to say, “look, you did that when you just showed me. I’ve done this. Why don’t they look the same”, and that’s a good way of learning. But of course, it’s not cheap to do that. And one-to-one coaching. As well, if it’s a good coach and there’s some brilliant ones out there, some less-brilliant ones as well, that’s also an excellent way to learn, but again, it’s expensive. Many people haven’t got the money to spend on being able to do that. And that’s sort of the ‘gold-ribboned’ method of learning skills, but again that may or may not work for you, and it’s a short period of time obviously as well.

Chris

I think as well with painting, and with sculpting in particular, (not so much with modelling), there’s a kind of haptic element to it as well. I mean, for me, and I don’t do proper sculpting, but a bit of converting and stuff, a big element was learning to let the putty go off for a little bit, especially some of the softer ones like Magicsculpt, because you can push it around when it’s soft, all over the place, and it will never do what you want, and if you just let it go off a bit and let it get a little bit stiffer, it makes a big difference. And that’s the kind of thing you only learn by actually touching it. And I think there’s an element of that to painting as well with how thin your paint is and how you apply it.

Robert

I absolutely agree, and some of those bits of information can actually be given in a book or an article. But others, you do need to see it and see it happening to really get the most from it. But again, it goes back to as we were talking earlier: you’re experimenting and just having to accept that sometimes it all goes horribly wrong.

The other two elements, which we haven’t covered are Facebook groups and forums, and obviously there are fewer and fewer forums that exist anymore. You know, they have their own benefits, and disadvantages, to learning as well. I think that forums I always found were a better learning place than Facebook, generally, but not all Facebook, there’s some very good groups on Facebook.

There used to be a forum in the UK called the Basement, which was a figure painting forum, and which I had the joy of having a little bit to do with the organisation of, in its later days. That was set up for people to give critique of people’s work. You put your stuff on there and you expected to get feedback on it. And you know, some people didn’t do very good feedback. And I think quite often people weren’t ready for that, because other forums you just put it on, and somebody went “great model”. And when they didn’t do that, people got quite upset, so that that can be an issue as well. I think Facebook suffers a lot from people just saying, “great model” and that’s great, it boosts your ego. And I stick stuff on there, and when people say that I’m very pleased about it. But I think that Facebook isn’t in many of its groups, not all by any means, but many of its groups. It’s not really good for getting honest, reliable feedback from.

Chris

I find Facebook and Instagram are very transactional, that it’s just you put up a picture, you get a reaction. That’s it. There’s not really the discussion. Sometimes there is if you get two people that are into it and have the ability to carry it out, but, you don’t get the kind of discussion you used to get on blogs, on forums where someone would start a thread on the build and would say what they’re doing. With updates and then people would come in and talk about it. You don’t really get that on Facebook because it doesn’t have that same ability to go back and find things.

Robert

No, no, I agree. And I think people are largely looking for clickbait, aren’t they? On, Facebook, they’re not really looking to read anything, or as you say, follow something through, which you can’t, it’s very difficult to track back if there is a build going on, I agree with that. And I think also the trouble with forums when you are getting comments or feedback, you need to make sure they’re coming from someone that you trust because as we know there are lots of people who are experts who tend to give you feedback or tips that aren’t necessarily very helpful.

Chris

What role do you think feedback and criticism plays in learning?

Robert

I think it’s absolutely key. I mean I think that really, it’s almost impossible to improve your skills without feedback, I can’t see how you can really because if you’ve done something,  there’s your own personal review, but there’s countless times when I’ve done a piece of work, and I look at it and then show it to someone else and they find out 10 things that I could have done better. And 10 things that I’ve done well, and I think that you’re always going to miss things or you’re not going to know what it is you need to do to make that better? You know, if just tweaking that little thing would have made it better next time, then you aren’t going to know that without feedback or critique; it’s a key part of the learning experience. Without it, it’s very difficult to make progress.

Chris

I was going to say if you can look at your own work objectively, and without too much ego, there’s always a bit of ego involved, then usually you can tell it’s not right. But quite often you can’t tell why, and you can’t tell what it is that’s not working, and that’s when someone else’s eyes on it can make a big difference. Sometimes I’ll get suggestions and feedback, and I’ll think, well, I don’t think so, but I’ll try it, see what it looks like. And they were completely right.

Robert

Yeah. No, I agree entirely. And I know you don’t always have to do what people say, I never ignore any feedback I get, but I don’t necessarily act on it, because it’s just someone else’s view of what you’ve done. It’s always interesting to listen to, you know, and I think that again, we’ll probably come to how you’ve received feedback as well a bit later, which is quite important, but I think that people will see things that you haven’t seen. I must admit, in my modelling world, I do sometimes wish I was that guy who has that table full of Shermans or Spitfires that all look exactly the same that would be made over 30 years and is happy with every one of them. I envy that sort of satisfaction with what I’m doing, which I never ever have achieved in this hobby. And I sort of sometimes think, wouldn’t it be nice if I could. And I don’t mean that in any way to be derogatory, I genuinely do envy their ability to do something and think: “I’m really happy with that and this is what I want to do”. I wish I could achieve that, but I don’t think I ever will.

Chris

Well, I would say people like us, and I’m presuming a bit there, who are always looking to do different things and to improve our skills and what have you, we’re coming to the hobby for two different things. We’re coming, perhaps for the challenge and for the excitement of learning different things, and they’re coming to relax. To build something they enjoy building in a way they enjoy building it and to have that time, just to do the thing they want to do without worrying about it. And I think it’s fine to come to it for different things.

Robert

Oh, I absolutely agree, yes, it’s two different ends of the hobby. The only commonality and is that manufacturers flog us the things we’re doing and the other guys, the things they’re doing. But otherwise, it is almost a totally different hobby that we’re doing. But yes, I’m certainly from the end of the hobby that wants to try and get better and better in what I’m doing, as I would imagine are most of the listeners to this podcast. For me it’s the key thing. You know it’s absolutely a key thing. If I look at something and I think, “well actually that’s no better than what I’ve done before, or nothing’s really improved on that” I’m not happy with it.

Well, to be honest, whatever I do, I’m not happy with, but that for me is the is the impetus to do something, to try and improve and get better with each piece.

Chris

I think I’m kind of afraid of being happy with it because, that means you’ve kind of “done it”, you know? I think not being happy with it’s great because it’s the motivation that drives you forward basically. I mean, it’s frustrating as hell, sure. But at the same time, it’s the engine that drives it.

Robert

It took me a long time, but the first time I got a gold medal, at Euromilitaire and I phoned my wife and she said, “how did you do?”, so, I got gold. “Yeah, that’s brilliant. Isn’t that fantastic?” I said “yes”. And because as far as I was concerned, that was done now, and I’ve done that and … so what? What’s the next thing I want to achieve, and she said, “well, you wanted to do that for so long”. Yeah. But I’ve done that now. Self-flagellation, isn’t it? It’s madness really. But it is a thing that makes you want to keep going with it.

Chris

Yes. It’s one of my favourite quotes and it’s quite a cheesy one. But I heard Arnold Schwarzenegger once and someone said, “why are you never satisfied?” And he said, “well, just because I’ve eaten breakfast, it doesn’t mean I don’t want lunch.”

Robert

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Chris

It’s true, you know there’s always the next thing. Always.

Robert

Very much so.

Chris

Now, that being said, we said obviously that critique can play a really important part in your personal development. But the are lots of different kinds of critique, and critique has a bad name, I think, because a lot of people see it only for the negative side of it.

What kind of critique are we talking about?

Robert

I do agree and as I said, in a way it’s why I prefer the word “feedback” to “critique” because just by using the word critique, people then think well, it’s something criticising you. Whereas feedback I think has a much more positive vibe about it. But yeah, I think that critique or feedback if done given well can encourage and enthuse and if done badly, can at its worst end make someone give up and never want to do it again. And I think most of it is sort of halfway between those and again the median of critique, particularly when it’s given online without any, visual cues as to how the person is delivering it.

Is difficult but if given well, well I mean feedback: it’s the old s*** sandwich, you know it’s a good bit, then it’s what you need to do better, and then it’s another good bit. I mean it sounds like it’s too simple but that is the best way to go if anyone is giving critique. All that they’re leaping in with “you should have done that”. “Why did you do that why.” “That would have been better.” So, it’s better than, and you see it often on Facebook, “That’s rubbish”.  Well, that’s not telling them a lot. There’s not even a narrow line between rude and being helpful. That’s just being rude and sometimes due to lack of social skills or just people enjoying the fact that they’re being rude.

Chris

I think that’s not really critique though. That’s more about them.

Robert

Yes.

Chris

Basically, that’s all it is, and it’s not at all about you or your model. It’s just about them. So yeah, I don’t qualify that as critique.

Robert

Yeah. I get asked at the trade stand, people will shove a model under my nose and say “oh what do you think of this?” And I do think reading the room is terribly important because there are quite a few people who don’t really want critique. They want you to say you like it and that’s fine. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. Certainly I’ve been with friends, and someone’s done the same to them and they’ve launched into the very valid critique of the piece that’s just been shoved under their nose. And you can see the person who’s holding it sort of shrink away and shrivel up inside because they thought their piece was really nice. And they go away thinking that it’s a piece of rubbish.

And I think it is important whenever you give critique to someone, certainly personally, that you do point out the things that are really good, because everything has got something that’s good about it there. I’ve never seen a piece that’s not got any merit to it whatsoever, ;just so that they feel “well, OK, I’m doing something, OK”. “And now you’re going to tell me what could be a bit better that I could have done to make that piece better”, and I think that it is key to do that but also and if we’re going talking about critique. You do also have to be prepared to say “OK, I am going to listen and I’m not going to burst into tears” because sometimes people will give you some pretty harsh critique and you just have to suck it up and say “OK, thanks very much for that.” I get that loads of times if I if I release a new figure.

Last year I released a set of three figures from the Napoleonic period and one of the first comments on one of the Facebook pages were “wrong buttons”. Just that “Wrong button”. So, I said, “well, thank you very much for your feedback with that”. And I used this particular piece of research to find out with that and sent him a picture of the research and he actually then came back and said “Oh well yeah I can see”, but actually that book’s not very accurate and I’ve done my own research and I had a very nice conversation with him about that. But I thanked him for it, you know, but it’s not the way to start with: “Wrong buttons”.

There’s no point in getting cross or angry about it, because it just happens. I think some people. Particularly when they’re commenting on things that are produced to be sold, when they do their critique, which is fine, they then expect manufacturers to go, “oh, that’s fantastic”. Thank you for that, which I always do. But I’m a tiddly little manufacturer. But you can’t change it. You know, I’ve got fifty of these things now. I’m not going to scrap them all and start again. Because of what you’ve said and people then think, “well, surely, you’d welcome this”. “Well, thank you. But not really”.

The most useful piece of feedback I had was out of Euromilitaire when I’d entered a bust and it hadn’t gotten a thing, and I went up to one of the judges, I won’t say who it was, but it’s a very well-known international model maker. And I went up to him and said “could you let me know why this didn’t get anything” and he told me and in no uncertain terms, but it was the best piece of advice I’d ever got. You know, I sat there and listened to every word that he said and made sure I did exactly what he was saying I needed to do in the next time, and it improved my sculpting enormously. But it was hard. I have spoken to him once subsequently and he said, “oh, was I rude?” I said “no, you weren’t rude, but you were close to it”.

But sometimes you do just have to sit there and accept it, because if you don’t and you get all defensive about it, you aren’t learning, then you’ve stopped listening. But that is the problem with critique. If you do it the wrong way, the person just stops listening, there’ll be a point where they’re not paying any attention anymore and then you aren’t giving them the opportunity to learn.

Chris

Critique can be painful to take, and it has been quite a few times I can think of where someone said something, and my first response is to be a bit… tetchy about it? And to not be particularly happy with receiving it, but what I always do is, I try and calm down a bit and then I ask myself, “but are they right?” “Objectively, are they right”. And if they’re right? I change it and thank them, for the critique and I do something about it. And if they’re wrong, I just ignore. It. Because sometimes what they’re telling you isn’t correct, but you have to be honest with yourself whether it is or not. You can’t just ignore it because you don’t like it.

Robert

Yeah, I would totally agree with that. And I think one’s natural reaction, when somebody is criticising you, is to bristle, it’s absolutely natural. It’s the normal react.

I think this is where the phrase, that I know that you and many others hate, the “rivet counter” thing “oh you know people are just criticising”. You just think “no, just listen to them, you don’t have to do what they say, but listen, cause actually what they’re saying might be true”.

And we go back to the guy with the Spitfires. That’s fine if that’s your hobby. Brilliant. You know, carry on with that. But if you’ve put it out there and you want people to actually feedback to you, then listen. As you say, they might be wrong, that’s fine. As we know, there’s an awful lot of bad advice out there on Facebook or on forums, but you know, they might actually have something that’s right. And there’s no point in getting het up and frustrated with it. Because actually, in the end of it, you may, have a gain out of it and that’s a good thing.

Chris

The other problem is there are cultural differences which can be come into play, particularly on the internet. I’m thinking in particular of Central/ Eastern Europeans, and I’m lumping like millions of people in together. So, you know, write in and tell me if I’m wrong. They’re just not from a culture where they dress stuff up. They are very blunt and they’re not being rude. It’s just they’re a direct people, like Germans don’t do small talk, they don’t beat around the bush with criticism. They just come straight out with it and they’re not attacking you, it’s just culturally how they are. And you need to kind of take that into account on the internet I think sometimes.


Robert
Absolutely. Yeah. As I say, I think just listen, swallow your pride. Listen to what someone’s saying. And then when you go back to your room or get home or whatever and decide what you want to do, you know whether what they said was worth or not, there is the problem. And it is a problem because if you do give bad critique, there is that possibility that that person that you’ve just given it to will never pick up a model again. You know, so it can be an issue. I certainly am not saying that you know being blunt or, you know, not rude. But being blunt is a good way to give. You at all, but I think that you know if you want to get better and that’s your aim, then you need to listen to all of it. You know, however, however it’s delivered because that’s the way you will get better.

Chris

I think also when you said about reading the room earlier, I think you have to read the room with their skill level as well. And I kind of meter my advice in a way. If I can see 10 things wrong with the beginner’s mode, I only suggest or try and encourage them to look at one thing, because you can overload them if you tell them that’s wrong, “that’s wrong, that’s wrong. that’s wrong, that’s wrong”. That’s when they think. “Why am I bothering? Why am I posting my models”.

Robert

Yeah, I yeah, I absolutely agree. There’s the s*** sandwich: one good/ one bad/ one good, you know? The good thing, the thing you could do better, and then the other thing that was good. There’s no point in in ripping something to shreds, and particularly if they are just starting off that’s nothing worse that’s going to discourage them from carrying on and nobody wants to stop them from being in the hobby.

Chris

I think for them as well, if they’re going to improve picking one thing and working on it is a better way to do it rather than worrying about 10 different things. But also like you say. About picking the good things, it’s not just about pandering to them. Part of learning isn’t just being told what you’re not doing well. It’s positively reinforcing things they are doing well that teaches them as well.

Robert

Definitely. And as I said in in anybody’s work, there’s always something that they’ve done OK, you know, at the level that they’re working at, you know, that could range from they’ve actually managed to paint within the lines, all the way through to the shading or the staining or the whatever they’ve done, beautiful. But there’s always something, and people want to feel good about what they’re doing. You know, It’s not a job. Well, it’s a job for you and me. But it’s not a job for most.

Chris

Yeah, none of us are getting paid to do it.

Robert

And so you know if you’re doing your hobby, you don’t really want to have someone putting you down. You want to you know, and particularly if you’re sharing your work, you want people to look at it and see some of the positives or see the positives of it, not just negative. And I absolutely agree. One thing is, I mean for all of us to be quite honest, one thing is far better to focus on rather than the whole list of things, because then it gets lost in the “Oh I’m not going to even bother” and the benefit is lost.

Chris

Personally, for me as well, every model I start I have obviously I want to do that model, and I have the goal of saying something with it or whatever. But also, there’s a goal of “this technique is something I want to work on with this model”. Because I find focusing on a particular difficulty or a particular thing you want to learn, rather than trying to focus on five or six means you do learn it properly because you’re focusing really well on that thing.

Robert

Yeah, and I’ve certainly done that. I’ve picked an aspect if I’m painting something that I’ve sculpted, I’ll pick and ask. “Well, that’s what I really want to try and get better at this time”. And, I think that’s a much better way to go. I think that modelling is developing, certainly with trying to tell stories or trying to get some emotional reaction. Of course, then you’re going to the art world more and you and I have had the conversation of “is modelling art” before, which we won’t have now. But then you do have to accept that the reaction you get may not be what you were thinking you’d get. And I’ve always believed that if you get a reaction, that’s a good thing. You know, from that point of view, if somebody hates the thing you’ve done, well, that’s fine. It’s a reaction to it. And with art, a lot of artists would say, “well, OK, at least I’ve instilled a reaction”. They haven’t just looked at it and thought, “well, that’s a bit bland” and walked on and particularly with storytelling, I think that it’s very much a thing to get feedback on because you might think in your head, you know damn well what that story is, but actually someone else looking at it will think “what’s going on there”. And I think I get frustrated, and you can tell me I’m wrong here in a Luddite, but I get frustrated when I go to galleries and artists have written a long spiel about what they’ve done. And you think, well, if you’ve got to do that, you haven’t really achieved it, have you?

Chris

No, we’re very much on the same page there. Anything you need to know about the artwork should be in the artwork, there shouldn’t be a book explaining it. I’m kind of not a fan of Brag books anymore, as they call them, I think in America, next to models showing like “this is what I did”, and “this is how I did the model”. The model on the table to be looked at and that’s it. That’s why we’re there.

Robert

Yes, I think the only way that that sometimes that’s necessary is if you’ve entered something that’s scratch. Built just to show that it is scratch build, you know that could be just one picture just to demonstrate that “this is how this came up. It’s not made from a from a kit” but otherwise no I agree. You know I think some people are interested in the process. But no, I think, particularly if you’re telling a story, the story should be there and sometimes that story is in your own head. But it is so much in your own head, and you think you’ve delivered it in the way you want to do it. But other people might look at it and think, well, “where what, I can’t see. I’m not seeing that at all”, and if everybody’s saying that. Then perhaps it needs some tinkering to do it to make it work.

Chris

I did a piece recently. [“Special Military Operation”] that didn’t quite work, and I got some really good feedback from Tracy Hancock and from Barry Bedinger and Marijn Van Gils and a couple of other people about it. And that made me see it differently. and I changed it based on that feedback and then it actually worked. Then it communicated the message that I wanted to communicate, but previously it didn’t. And if I hadn’t shown it to people and asked them to critique it. I wouldn’t have known. I would have thought that they everyone else would see what I’m seeing. If you see what I mean. And it didn’t change it. Usually we’re talking like 5 percent, 10%, but it’s that extra little thing. But makes it work and like you said. You don’t necessarily know that unless someone helps you.

Robert

That was a good star-studded cast of people to get feedback from, but I think that if one can get a group of trusted friends, and that’s not always possible if you’re modelling out in the middle of nowhere and there isn’t a local club and the only way you’ve got is through the Internet, you don’t really meet people, then that’s difficult. But I’m lucky as well to have a group of people who always show each other what we’re doing, and we will get asked “Well, is that working or does that look right or can you tell me if that bit works there”, and they will tell you to be honest and you can have a discussion about it. And I think that’s a real way to help. But for a lot of people that isn’t available, and then there are the other methods of books, YouTube demos and classes, and Facebook are the only things that they can use. But if one can develop that little core of people who will give you honest feedback on something, I think that’s really, really helpful.

Chris

I did name drop a bit there, but that’s because they’re all people that I trust to be completely honest. They’re not just going to go. “Oh, that’s nice”. They’re going to go. “Oh, that’s not so good. Do this.”

But I think also potentially even if you don’t know modellers that you can turn to your partner or a friend who doesn’t model would probably be pretty good because they’re not going to bring all the baggage of the language of modelling to it. So, if you have got some sort of message you’re trying to get across and they can see it, then it works.

Robert

Yes, I think certainly from the story, yeah, if you’re trying to tell a story that very much so because they’re looking at it like anybody else is looking at it. It’s not so helpful with ego. “Is that technique working well?” But certainly, from the telling of a story point of view. Yeah, because they’re no different from anybody else who’s going to look at it at all. It’s got to work with them just as much as it has to work with another person who happens to make models. So yeah. I do think that’s true.

Chris

Possibly with them it’s more important than it works because, like I said, modellers might bring other models that you’ve both seen, to it subconsciously. And will tell, you know, if it works with someone who doesn’t model, then it will work with anyone, pretty much.

Robert

I’m really pleased that storytelling is becoming more of a thing rather than just placing things together. You know as a person who’s come from historical figure modelling, you know for years it was just “you stuck a few figures on the base”. And that was it. And it was more displaying a uniform with a person underneath it. I’m really pleased it’s moved on and because I’ve got a lot of learning to do with that of trying to tell a story and how sometimes the story can be, you know, quite ambiguous. I mean I love the work of Fet Milner and the work that he’s doing, his tall chairs at the moment are fantastic.

Chris

Yes!

Robert

And yeah, you do have to think about it. It’s a story where you can have your own interpretation of it. I’m not sure knows what his interpretation of it really is, but, it’s your own interpretation of what’s going on there and I think that’s great. I mean I really do celebrate that the hobby has moved in that way.

Chris

I think he’s actually one of the most interesting people making stuff at the moment because it’s total, like Tue Kaae that we had on and like Jean Bernard André, they’re people that are doing things which are totally outside of the regular realm of what we do, if you see what I mean, they’re stretching the limits of what modelling is, in a way.

Robert

And being brave enough to do it. You know, go back a few years, no one would have thought of putting people on tall, tall seats.

Chris

Yeah. You wouldn’t do that stuff at that. Like the ones he did last year, I think with creatures with

Villages on their backs and things like that. No one’s done things like that.

Robert

No. And I think that that and actually going back to [what Tue said about] he’s focusing on a certain part and the bit that you can’t see so much doesn’t matter. That’s a whole step forward as well because you know, I’ve judged at Euromilitaire for years and you turn the whole thing around, and if it wasn’t 360 degrees, absolutely perfect you wouldn’t give it anything. And that’s different. I think that the, the way and there’s still a lot of thought that that is the way it should be. But the way we are moving a bit away from that, I think it’s a good thing.

Chris

I think, I mean, we’re kind of wandering off. The subject, but.

Robert

Yes, sorry.

Chris

No, I’m. I’m really happy with it. I think figure painting is doing it a lot more than scale modelling. I think figure painters are really pushing it. In a way that scale modelling isn’t yet.

Robert

Yeah, I think you’re right, It’s easier to tell a story with humans or animals than it is with vehicles or aircraft, but [its] not impossible to do it. But I do agree. I think that the figure modelling world has, it’s not always been open to change as I said not. You know quite a lot. Not but. But it certainly has been more open to change in all aspects of it, not just fantasy sci-fi, but also in in the historical world. And I think that that, you know, they have certainly been pushing that envelope further and further. And I think that’s a good thing to see. But I do see it happening more in the aircraft, and certainly more in the vehicle modelling world. Now there’s still a lot of people pointing at the aeroplane that’s flying overhead but not actually reacting with each other. But there’s more and more now. People really looking at, well, what’s happening here and how am I saying that story?

Chris

I think it might be because there’s too much focus on kits in scale modelling because people tend to think of scale modelling as picking a kit from the stash and building it. Whereas a lot of the figure stuff I’m looking at, there are very few commercial parts in it. It’s all sort of like Fet Millers work as well. It’s stuff that they come up with the idea first and then make the things to fit the idea rather than “oh, I’m going to get a kit and then how can I put that kit into a story?”

Robert

Quite rightly, the star of the thing is the vehicle. Yeah, not what’s going on around it, but that’s because that’s what they want to want to do, and that’s totally fair enough. They’re not necessarily modelling for a story. Even if they’re doing a diorama, the star of the show is still the vehicle rather than a story. And that’s fine. You know, if that they want that as the main focus.

Chris

Now we talked about it briefly a second ago, but how can we learn from competition? From both as competitors and as judges.

Robert

I think for me competition is a great key and a great killer. But I do think it is a way that you can test your mettle. So as an entrant, you can go along and stick your model on the table surrounded by other things and that gives you an idea without anyone giving critique. It’s your own personal critique of, well, how’s my stuff looking, surrounded by all this stuff, and I think that really does help you get an idea of where you are, and you know, sometimes you think “well, why did that get something? And I didn’t” and that that can happen, but generally you can have a look and say “well, OK, I could sort of judge him here. How I’m doing and where I am” and so on. I’m afraid I’m not a great hanger around on the competition table. I tend to dump stuff and disappear very rapidly. But you know, if you are hanging around, you do hear some very interesting conversations that people are having with their models, usually right in the way of what you want to look at, but I think that can be a positive thing.

Also, it’s the real judgement as well, how do you actually do in the competition? With the caveat that all competitions are judged by humans not robots, so they will have their own opinions and their own way of doing it. Yes, you might get the same piece get a different award, in a different competition of the same standard, but that’s just how competition is, and that’s that, you have to accept that or don’t bother entering.

But I love the open system. Many years ago, I used to run the competition that the Bristol BMS did, and I was competition secretary for a while, and we introduced the full open system there many years ago. I mean it’s so long ago I actually wrote to Shep Paine to ask about it, you know, and he wrote back because e-mail wasn’t kicking around, and he was very lovely about it. But I think that way, it’s still a competition. I mean, yes, it’s a juried exhibition, but it’s not just a display, it is a competition. And yes, I am p***** o**. If I only get a bronze medal when I think I should have got a silver or, you know, whatever. And that’s just how it is, you know? And I will accept that and think well, “OK, I won’t get that until I do this”. But it is still a competition. I think I think everyone is deluding themselves if they don’t think there is an element of competitiveness. In that system.

When I started to do Elan 13, I stopped doing judging, largely because when you trade at a show you couldn’t do judging, [due to not being able to get away from the stand] but I used to love judging. I did judge SMC for three years as well, and I love judging because you just get that rare opportunity to pick something up and really look at it, and to have three other people who are looking at it with you and have a discussion about its merits. That is something I think the open system really does do well, is you look at the merits rather than you’re trying to find faults, and I think that’s a far more positive way of judging: this finding the best in something rather than finding the worst and knocking marks for it. An element of that has to happen at some point, but I think that’s a much better way of doing it, and that’s a real privilege and a pleasure to do. And it’s difficult to get to be a judge in the bigger competitions because they’ve got lots of people who are happy to do it and it’s difficult to get your foot in the door, particularly if you’re up and coming.

I know in the states, some of them do they have their, sort of learning judges, don’t they? I think that’s a good idea. I think it’s a lovely really positive thing to do. I think it’s more difficult otherwise, but it is a real privilege to be able to do that and you do learn a lot from the other judges and what they’ve seen in something, that you have or haven’t. I also think that I’ve judged with some judges who are not what would have been regarded as top class, certainly figure modellers but they were bloody good judges, really good judges. And I’ve judged with some world class figure modellers who were terrible judges and only like things that were in the style that they liked to use and mark down things that were in weren’t in that style. And you know, a few arguments ensued from that. So, I think that sometimes it when you’re receiving critique, it doesn’t have to be from someone who is world class.

Chris

Oh yeah, yeah, that’s irrelevant.

Robert

It is irrelevant, yeah, because actually, if what they’re saying is accurate or is has value to, it doesn’t matter whether they haven’t made a model in 30 years or they’re they’ve just won Best of Show at, you know, World Expo. I think that frustrates me a little bit.

But, yeah, I think competition is good. There is the big thing of feedback, and I know that’s been discussed on the SCU. You’ve judged big classes in competitions like me. We have the prospect of doing that for several hours and then having to write feedback, I can’t see it happening. I really can’t. I think you get your judges disappearing in droves if they said, well, you got to give written feedback for each piece as well. I think that’s really hard and I’m not sure of the value of the sort of one I know that. In is it in IPMS ones where or is it amps where they will? They sort of will write, you know, “seam lines” or something like that and, you know yeah, OK, that’s great. Then you can think, well, OK, I left some seam lines in, but it’s not telling you a great deal. I’m not sure how that helps.

Chris

Yeah, it’s a bit like “wrong buttons”. It’s not actually that useful.

Robert

Yes. And I think that you know it in a big competition, I think it’s going to be terribly difficult. I went to the Fen show this year. And the judges were hanging around after on the second day, and my friend Mark Taylor gave some fantastic critique to one of the competitors who was there about why it was that the award was given, that was given, and that I’m sure was really useful. And some judges are happy to do that. But a big show. I think that’s really difficult to do. I can see the potential merit of it, but I do think it’s really difficult to do and it’s almost impossible to give feedback on a model that you didn’t judge yourself.

Chris

You can give an opinion.

Robert

Yeah, absolutely. But you can’t say why it got a gold, or it didn’t get a gold. Yeah, you can’t do that because you weren’t a part of that discussion, you can certainly give the feedback of what you yourself feels about it. But you can’t say why another group of judges has given an award.

Chris

I think one of the things I like most about judging is you get to look at the models really closely and I learned, like you’ve said, right at the start about learning to look at things. Looking at models closely, you learn just from looking at them, you can see the brush marks well, you know, not like literally like lines, but how they did the paint. But you can almost see how the paint was applied just by looking closely at the model, and you can learn from that and learn from how they’ve positioned it, how they’ve lit it, how they’ve done things. In a way that you can from looking at models on the Internet or looking at photos or going as a visitor to the show, but you don’t get to look as closely and spend as much time with it probably as you do if you’re judging.

Robert

I agree entirely. And yeah, it is a real joy to be able to do that. I think it’s a real privilege. Yeah, and particularly in those big competitions where people want to be judges. Unfortunately, as we know in many local shows, many judges are asked on the moment they walk in the door. Can you come and judge? And that’s a whole different experience then.

Chris

It’s more like a press-gang.

Robert

Yeah, yeah, very much so. And that’s a different experience perhaps. Yeah. But yes, I agree. I think the opportunity to really look closely at something and you know it, give back. I mean, I didn’t go to art school at all, but I did learn with my sculpting particularly, is realised I wasn’t looking enough, and I think in this hobby it’s a visual thing we’re doing, and you do need to look.

People ask about sculpting, and they say what’s the biggest thing? Go look at stuff. Don’t assume you know how it works. Look at it, particularly with human bodies. Everyone thinks they’ve got one of their own. They think they know how it all works, how it fits together. But they don’t, because they don’t look at it. And yes, OK, you might get arrested in the street if you’re staring at someone and you know, “oh, I was just looking at your nose. Sorry.” Perhaps that doesn’t go down so well. But, you know, actually looking closely at something, I think it’s terribly important. You can learn an awful lot from doing that, not necessarily how they did it, but you can see what they’ve done, and I think that’s terribly important.

Chris

I don’t know if it’s from reading at school or whether it’s the Internet or what, but I think we tend to scan things rather than properly reading them. And that applies as well to visual things rather than just, you know, text or what have you. I think when we look at something, we think “that’s a person, right? I’ve got that two arms, two legs, head, OK no, problem, blah blah blah”. Yeah, but we don’t look at “how does that shape turn into that, how does that line transmit to that line and how does that where’s the weight? Where is this? Where is that?” And you do have to train yourself to look.

Robert

Yeah, no, I absolutely agree. And I know for many years, I mean I, I was sculpting stuff wrong and you know I bought anatomy books and started to look at that and yeah then you know the great joy of digital photography is you can photograph yourself in a pose usually and then you can actually see how things work.

But looking is terribly important and I think it is one of the skills that’s not often mentioned in publications about model making. Thing is, make sure you look carefully. It is a key factor.

Chris

I think also it’s we can learn by sort of critically appraising other people’s work, not even telling them, but just by looking at it and thinking “what do I really think of that” and looking at it closely rather than just the usual thing scrolling, “that’s a nice model ‘like’ that’s a nice model ‘like’”. How do you think we can learn to critically improve our critical skills and learn from looking at other people’s work?

Robert

I think it’s taking a bit of time, and I agree, I’m totally guilty of doom scrolling on Facebook and you just, you know, go through and through and through and through and because it is just this assault of images. And you don’t tend to look at things closely, but occasionally I will stop and look at something you know, really look at something and open the picture up as much as I can and look. And I think when you’re looking at something, firstly, “does it work? Does it look right?” And then you’re looking at “how did they do that? You know what? What’s there? Why? Why is. Why is that piece of colour there?” And. And I think “Why have they done that bit of shading there? How they use that light effect?” And I think that’s important.

I often refer back to the big Bill Horan book that he did it “the complete Bill Horan” and I often just get that book out and just look at what he used to do, and what he still does, but how he did it and how he animates things. and I think you could look at that and think, well, that he could have done that in a different way. But again, if you go back to the open system of judging, it’s good to look at what he got right, rather than saying “Oh, well, yeah, I could have done that better” or “that’s not quite so good”. It’s looking at “OK, what have they got right and what can I then do when I’m doing it, how can I use some of those skills?” And you know Bill Horan himself used Don Triani’s work as starting points for many of his works, because he’s used a different influence or a different starting point and done it brilliantly. I think it’s good to do that and I think you can, as I say, critique. For what people have got right, rather than critiquing for, “that could have been better, or that that arm’s wrong. Or why did they paint that like that?” Because that’s not helping you learn. It’s just pointing out something’s wrong. What helps you learn is looking at the things that are right and how that works.

Chris

I think when I’m looking at things, I think “well that that really looks great or that doesn’t look so great.” The way you start to learn is when you ask yourself why. Why does that work? Why doesn’t it work, and you try and work out what they’ve done to make it work? Or, perhaps they haven’t done that, that could have made it work a bit better. Because you can learn from mistakes, I mean that’s the best way to learn this, from mistakes, from your own and from other peoples. And I think people forget that on the internet as well. When you’re giving or receiving critique on. Social media, what have you. It’s not just you that’s learning or not just you, that’s. You know. Although just the person you’re talking to, that’s learning, it’s everyone else reading as well.

Robert

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think we do forget who the audience is on the Internet. It can be quite a large one. And I think, you know, some people (not me), but some people, you know, do have a big influence as well on the Internet. I mean obviously the influencers, but in the in the hobby world as well, and you know their words are very much followed and generally that’s a good thing, it’s not always a good thing, but generally that is a good thing because generally those people are aware of the position that they are in, and therefore use that influence to do a good thing rather than the bad thing. But I agree about making mistakes. I think that’s absolutely the case. And I think that, yeah, if you’re not making a mistake, you’re not getting any better because you’re just doing the same thing.

Chris

Risk taking is a big part of it. One of the things that irritates me most, not in a bad way, is when people say, “oh, I’m afraid to paint it because I don’t want to mess it up” or what have you. And it’s like… it’s just a model! Just do it. The only way you don’t learn is by not trying.

Robert

Yes. I agree entirely. I could sort of understand that if you’ve bought a kit that’s cost you £150 plus and you sort of don’t want to mess it up. But then again, if you’re never going to do it, either don’t buy it or just do something with the kit. I mean, I know we’ve all got boxes of kits around the house, and you know their eco loft lagging is a great thing. I think the government ought to fund kits, to like lag lofts, but its whole purpose is to be built, or if it’s a figure to be put together and painted. It’s not to sit in a box. And degrade over decades, and I think it is a shame that if you pick something that you liked, you bought it because you liked it enough and you’re not doing it because you don’t think you can’t do it justice. I think that’s a shame really, because that’s not the whole purpose of the kit.

Chris

I don’t know about you, but as a producer, one of the things that I find saddest is that I don’t see more of the things I make, built, because I love seeing people build them and paint them.

Robert

No, I couldn’t agree more with that. I absolutely love it when people come to the stand, and it isn’t that often, but when they do come to stand and again and shove the thing they’ve done at me. “Yeah, I did this”. Or if I’m walking around a show and on the table, I see something that I’ve sculpted or something from my range that someone else has sculpted, that’s a brilliant feeling and to be honest that’s a better feeling than anything else to do with selling anything and I really love it. And I don’t care how “well”, it’s been done. It makes no difference to me because the amount of love and attention that person’s put into it is no more or less than anybody else who’s done it and.

Chris

You took the words out of my mouth. They’ve enjoyed it. That’s the thing Yeah?

Robert

Yeah. And that that’s a fantastic feeling. And I know there’s a couple of sculptors that I work with who would say exactly the same thing if they see their piece that they’ve sculpted being done at a show, or even if it comes up on the Internet, it’s great. It’s a great feeling to see that people have bothered to put their time into it and their effort into doing something with it, that again is a privilege. It’s a fantastic feeling.

Chris

When I think about how many I’ve sold and how many I’ve seen, there’s a lot sitting around in people’s boxes.

Robert

But as I say, we’re good for the environment because we’re lagging those lofts and stopping the heat going out the ceiling, yeah, so.

Chris

Now, where can people find Elan, 13 and where can they find your work?

Robert

So Elan13 Miniatures does have a website which is www.elanelan13.co.uk, so that and the whole range is on there. You can order from there. Or go to eBay and put in a search for Elan 13 miniatures, the majority of the range is on that as well, if you’re an EU customer, the advantage of eBay is, it will tell you what the 20% extra VAT you’ll have to pay, and we’ll take it from you. So there’s not a shock. And also I am on Facebook as Robert Lane or as Elan 30 miniatures and I’m on Instagram as Elan 13. I post most regularly on Facebook. I try and keep up with Instagram. I’m not very good at keeping up with Instagram, but I do try and keep up with that.

Chris

Now you got a huge range of stuff as well, so if you’re interested in historical, even science fiction with the Licentia series, all kinds of stuff.

Robert

Tere are some other there’s some fantasy busts that as well, yeah.

Chris

Yeah, historical as well. Different scales pilots, particularly if you’ve got one of those beautiful 1/24th Airfix aircraft, then Robert’s got some great pilots for you as well. Head on over there and pick yourself something up. I’ve got a few. They’re huge fun to paint, so I recommend them to anyone.

Robert

Very much.

Chris

Thank you for joining us. Robert.

Robert

No, thank you very much, Chris. Really enjoyed it. Thank you.

———————————————————————————————————–

Well, I think that was a really interesting conversation with Robert, packed with a lot of concepts that deserve some serious, deeper thoughts.

I recorded it with Robert last week and I’ve been thinking about it ever since, especially while editing it later on. There are a few things I think it might help us to consider further.

It is important to accept that all modeller’s are different and each one can find benefit from approaching their work in different ways. And modelers who take part in any social sharing of the hobby, such as social media clubs or shows, we have a responsibility to help others develop. This responsibility comes from the fact that everything we know, we’ve learned from others, and our skills and knowledge are not entirely our own to horde.

But that responsibility means we have to do it well: be critical, but also be kind and courteous in doing it and never, ever, give advice unless you believe you really do know the answer. Too many times I’ve seen people give poor, ill-informed advice simply to be part of the conversation. If you don’t know, it’s better to be silent. If you do know, try to be helpful.

By the same token, if you want to learn, you have to actively seek and welcome all advice, not just the advice you like. As Rob said, you have no responsibility to accept or act on advice, but ask yourself one question, regardless of how nicely or not it was delivered:

Is it true?

If it is, then it is and the choice becomes whether or not you act on that truth. If it isn’t, just ignore it and move on. But be honest with yourself about whether or not the person giving the criticism is correct.

One of the best things to learn is how to analyse your mistakes when something goes wrong. Our first instinct is usually to panic and do something quickly to fix it. Few mistakes get worse over time, if you don’t put your hands on the model, immediately. Stop and ask yourself “what’s gone wrong?” Analyse all the factors. The materials you used, how you use them, how they interacted, usually by the process of eliminating factors you know are not to blame, through repetition and experience of previously using them, you can identify the one that is, or at least get enough of an idea to understand what the variable might be and how to conduct an experiment to find out.

Asking the Internet can be great. But often finding out for yourself is more instructive and more useful. This also applies to models that do not achieve what you wanted to achieve when you set out, which is most of my models. Analyse your finished models, not to see what you need to change on that model, but to think of things you might implement on the next one.

Take notes and keep a diary if it helps. Analyse success is often said that failure is the best teacher and this is very true. But success can be instructive too, although the lessons can be harder to find. Often when we build, it is intuitive what we do and how we do it, although that intuition is usually built on the knowledge and habit ingrained over time. Often when we make an especially satisfying model, we may not know what it is that makes it so. Take time to analyse your successes to see what works, and as the military saying goes, consider “reinforcing success” by pursuing something that is working for you and seeing why and whether you can push it further.

For me, modelling is a never-ending journey. I’ll never make the perfect model, but the pursuit gives me the joy of achieving more and more as I chase that unachievable goal. Every model, remember, is just practice for the next.

I hope you’ve enjoyed this discussion of learning and development in modelling. If you have your own comments or suggestions, please do e-mail me at info@insidethearmour.com. I’d love to hear your thoughts on this subject.

My thanks to the Model Philosopher Patrons and our sponsor Scale Model Challenge, who help me keep this show going. If you would like to sponsor the podcast or the blog, please do go to patreon.com/themodelphilosopher. Alternatively, you can help me out by leaving a review on your podcast app of choice. This helps others to find the podcast and hopefully get something out of it too.

Until next time, take care.