REALISM with David Parker

This blog, is an interview with David Parker, publisher, author and scratchbuilding master, who is now a scratchprinting master, bringing heightenend levels of realism to modelling, in detail and in painting.

After talking up the art side of modelling, I thought it was time we heard from someone dedicated to fidelity to realism, and David is absolutely committed to that.

Chris

David Parker, welcome to The Model Philosopher. Thank you for joining

David Parker

Thank you very much Chris.

Chris

We’ve known each other long time anyway, but people may have heard your interview on the Sprue Cutters Union some time ago, and will know that you’re very dedicated to realism and accuracy in modelling.

David Parker

I guess you could say that, yeah.

Chris

So for those who don’t know, we live under a rock. Can you tell us what you do in modelling? People might associate you with AFV Modeller, but there’s a lot of other things as well

David Parker

I am one of the founders of AFV and Air Modeller magazine. These days I’m doing less with that and more with 3D design and print. I’ve written a few books on various things at various times. Probably best known for my book Super King, which detailed my three-and-a-half-year project to completely fix the Trumpeter King Tiger.

That’s really my direction of travel at the moment is large scale detailing and working exclusively in 16th scale.

Chris

The funny thing about the Super King was that was, maybe the last full big project you did purely scratch building without any 3D, is that fair?

David Parker

No, think the majority of the Panzer IV was scratch built.

Chris

but your transition was during that project, wasn’t it?

David

Yeah, towards the end of it, I suddenly discovered 3D print and design and that was that. I haven’t really looked back since. But I would say 95 % of that project was done traditionally. All the tricky bits were done traditionally. There was a couple of bits like the design of the engine and one of the fan units and things that somebody helped me out by designing that for me. But the rest of it was putty and plastic card and bits of brass wire and all that stuff.

Chris

I remember seeing an articles you wrote years ago, for other people before AFV modeller even, about scratch building and detailing, and essentially making kits more accurate.

David

Yeah, I used to write for Military Modelling in the late 90s, early 2000s and that was my thing there as well I think, fixing things, correcting things, not always being satisfied with how things came in the box. So yeah, it’s a long road for me of doing that sort of attention to detail. And there’s been a huge learning curve to get there, to the point where you can sort of scratch build large parts of the interior of a tank because you’ve developed that sort of skill base, to drive that project. I guess if you’re not comfortable doing that, you’re not going to push yourself to do it are you? You’re probably going to just build things as they come and paint them nicely.

Chris

I think confidence is a big part of it. I think what puts a lot of people off big scratchbuilding projects, or detailing, or what have you, is they don’t feel they have the skills and therefore: they don’t really know where to start. I think once you’ve done a lot of it, it’s just a job then, it’s just a task. And mentally you can break it down and you can take it on because you know you can do it. If you don’t know how to do something, you know you have the ability to find a way to do it.

David

Yeah, I would agree with you. think there’s a confidence that comes from knowing you can pretty well tackle anything that might be thrown at you. At the same time, the only way you get that is by stepping into the unknown a little bit from time to time, pushing yourself to extend and learn new techniques, or you discover a way of doing something out of need because there was no other way of doing it. So yeah, I think that’s certainly my experience of it anyway.

You know I remember, there have been times, when I was a lot younger, where I didn’t have all those techniques and abilities and skills, and things were far more frustrating as a result I think. But I think that’s what motivates me anyway. I’m not saying it’s a must-have set of skills, or a route that everybody wants to follow.

It’s interesting, I’m just thinking, “do I miss not doing stuff traditionally?” And I don’t think I do really.

So I think that’s probably a set of skills that I’m now going to lose, because I’m not using them. But that’s the way it is.

Chris

I think when we spoke before, we talked about sort of the craft of scratch building. it seemed to me that the craft of it didn’t really interest, it was the result that interests you.
 

David

Yeah, it’s always the result. Always. You know, it’s sure there’s something really nice about having a particular complicated piece of machinery recreated with lots of little brass nuts. and you take some photos of it, and it looks great and it’s all clean, but then ultimately, you’re going to paint it. it’s just, it doesn’t really matter. And now I can get something that has that finishing appeal of a 3D printer but is even better because all the nuts are exactly placed and all the castellated nuts that you can’t really do because they’re too small and all these sorts of things. The regularity, the repetition of parts, the regular spacing, all those things that as a scratch build you struggle to achieve, you know.

I’m notoriously, in my own mind anyway, notoriously lazy about measuring out distances. So I just, you know, I’ll kind of try and judge my eyes, stick them on and realise I’ve got it wrong, have to move them a bit. Instead of measuring them and marking points, I just, I never learn for things like that. I just always try and just guess it.

Chris

You and me both! But with 3D, with Fusion or whatever, you draw one, you give it an axis, tell it a pattern and distance and pop there it is, it’s done. The only thing you’ve got to do there is manually go along and turn every nut so they’re not all exactly the same orientation.

David Parker

Yeah, yeah, if you really want to be fiddly about it, yes, you can, and I do that because I can hear people in my head sometimes going, “it would have been nice if you’d just did all the nuts [not] facing the same way.”  But yeah, for me, it’s a whole different sort of satisfaction.

It’s the same, as it’s creative, it’s incredibly creative and can be sometimes just as challenging to get to recreate something with the accuracy I want it to have, and then there’s that excitement of waiting for it to come off the printer. It’s fantastic, it’s what gets me in the office every morning seeing what’s printed, yeah it’s brilliant.

Chris

but the goal of your scratch building, and your 3D design has always been, I think it’s fair to say, a pursuit of realism.

David

Absolutely.

Chris

Do think realism is central to scale modelling?

David

Well, I think it needs to be right up there, because it’s the difference between a photograph and a sketch otherwise, isn’t it? If you’re satisfied with a rough sketch of the car that you’ve got parked outside, then that’s all right, but it’s not an exact scale model of it. Whereas a photograph of it will give you a lot better and more accurate representation of what it is and what it looks like and what colour it is.

And the thing for me is If you’re making a model, [in] scale, my aim is to reproduce whatever it is at a particular size so that it looks like the real thing. Because otherwise it’s not a model of that. It’s just a vague thing. You know, it’s a car or it’s a tank or, it’s a Spitfire, but it’s not a Mark IX Spitfire. It’s just a Spitfire, because it’s got elliptical wings or whatever.

I think if you don’t have that focus on getting things, Accurate and real and replicated properly, then you’re on a you’re on that kind of drift off into all sorts of vague areas. [I get]  huge satisfaction in knowing that you’ve got the model as accurate as you possibly can, given those caveats of some unknown bit of information that you didn’t have at the time. because that’s part of the challenge.

Also, for me, the thing is the finishing needs to deceive you into thinking, if it’s photograph, that it’s actually a real vehicle. If you can trick somebody into [thinking], at first glance, “that’s a real tank or a real aeroplane” because of the way you’ve finished it, but also a little bit of sympathetic photography and lighting will help. Then I think that’s an issue I’ve accomplished, as far as I’m concerned anyway. When I finished my Panzer IV, I took the time to take it outside and set it up and photograph it against some hedgerows and things. And in the right bit of sunlight, to me, it looked like what I think one of those vehicles would look like, operating in Normandy in the summer of 1944.

I think that that was my aim at the beginning, to reproduce a particular vehicle with all its foibles, all its little bits of damage, all its markings and have it look as real as I could make it from inside and outside. So, yeah, that’s the challenge I set myself, with things.

I’ve just come back from the beach this afternoon, the weather defeated me by it because when I left, when I left the office, it was sunny. And then when we got there, and we got out of the car it clouded over. But I [took] my SAS Jeep down there to try and get some sand dune shots to sort of make it look a little bit North African and a little less Northumberland. And actually, even with the cloudy conditions, I’ve got some really nice shots. So, I’m quite pleased about that.

But that’s an interesting one as well. I was discussing that I couldn’t get the shots I wanted in the studio with it; I shot it on white. that didn’t look right. I shot it on the black background. It looked a bit better, but it was creating a lot of shadows and things, so I wasn’t entirely happy with that. I shot it on a neutral grey [and] that wasn’t right either. But I’ve managed to get some really nice shots outside with it so I think that’s probably the way to go.

Chris

It’s funny to say that because some of the photos of aircraft I love the most are the ones in Scale Aviation magazine that Noah Krasowitz does where he goes out at six o ‘clock in the morning and gets the early sunlight on a model to make it look like it’s out on a runway somewhere.

David

Yes, and the one of the Japanese magazines is very good at doing that. Tthey do often do that with the models and photograph them, you know, against, as you say, a sunrise or sunset or whatever. And somehow it looks so convincing and so real. Yeah, it’s a technique in itself. It’s not always easy to get that result, and obviously studio photography is a lot easier to control than shooting outside but when you pull it off it’s really good.

Chris

you get a result you just can’t get in the studio, no matter how you control it.

David

I’ve developed ways of trying to sort of create a strong sunlight effect for a desert thing, but you end up fiddling around with backgrounds and flashlights and it’s not always successful. When it works it’s great, but it doesn’t always.

Chris

So, do you think for you, modelling is about producing an accurate scaled down replica of a real physical thing?

David

That’s exactly what it’s about. There’s bits that come off that as well. It’s not often that I build a vehicle and not put figures with it. I’m not sure why I do that in a way, it’s not that I’m a huge diorama maker or diorama storyteller, because I’m not, it’s not one of my [strengths], I’ve come to realise. But I do like to populate the thing somehow.

Chris

I think somehow it makes it feel more real if you have something human scale next to

David

Yeah, it can do.

The Jeep is a good example. I hadn’t built anything for two years before I finished the Jeep, and I’d lost some so much muscle memory and just skill in that two -year period. I was quite shocked at how bad things were to start with but bit by bit it came back, and painting the figures was quite a challenge, having not done it for such a long time. And I think there’s always a challenge there with combining, what I might call, the more theatrical painting techniques of fake shadows and all that sort of thing with [the] vehicle that hasn’t got any of that, so that the two don’t sort of jar with each other. A bit like… maybe you had a say in this hypothetical model your driver’s got a painted non -metallic shiny helmet sitting in the seat but then the rest of the bits in the vehicle are painted with proper metallic colours. There’d be quite a jarring of those two approaches. I think.

Like, I was aware that you’re traveling in an open topped vehicle in a dusty environment and the people are going to get quite dusty as well, but it’s quite hard to dust. If you’re not careful, it just looks like you’re just a rubbish figure painter. There’s a little bit of a balance there to be had.

Chris

Dust has a very deadening, flattening effect and [on a] figure, that just doesn’t look good.

David

Well, I figure where you’re using darker tones to create your shadows and things that define the volume of the thing, those recesses would be probably where the dust collects. So then to put a light-coloured dust into that, it’s kind of counterintuitive, isn’t it? It’s almost going to give you a negative effect.

Chris

I think it’s harder to paint figures in a naturalistic, realistic style than it is to paint vehicles.

David

I would agree with that.

Chris
And like you say, it’s not what people expect either, which is the issue. When they look at the figure, they’ll say, “it’s not very well painted”. Whereas what you’ve done is you’ve tried to make it look real.

David

Yeah, and this was a weird one as well, because one of the things I tried to do was create a distinct sunburn effect. So, I figured these guys are driving around without any, you know, any protection from the sun. No factor 50 and no hats and this sort of thing as well. So, I went quite red with my flesh tones as a result, thinking about how the average Englishman goes, you know, … And there was a point when I thought I might have overdone that, but I was pleased when people saw it, they remarked on the fact they could see that they were sunburned. I thought, well, that’s what I was trying to achieve. So, in that respect, I think that was successful.

So, it was a bit of a gamble, because had it not worked I’d have been back to square one really with it.

Chris

The issue I find with realism quite often is, you do it very well, but I see quite a lot of people who pick and choose their realism, if you see what I mean. So particularly with aircraft modellers, I’m thinking I see people saying, “well, you can’t see panel lines at scale distance. So I’m not going to put panel lines on”  and you know, the colour has to be exactly like the real one, but then they’re quite happy to not put brake lines on landing gear, or to use a kit canopy that would be scale six inch thick or something.

And I find it quite strange, but, I suppose there is always a line. And for people who go as far as possible, the line is physics. “How thin can I make something before it will fail physically then?” But I do find that that line varies a [lot].

David

Yeah, things like canopies, I would agree, you know, but then I think there’s always that fear of destroying the only canopy piece that you’ve got in an attempt to of thin it or whatever. But yeah, there’s a lot of that selective focus on detail where it’s convenient. then, mind you, I’m not a great one for sort of, you know, detailing the underside of things that I can’t see, or nobody’s ever going to see. I don’t see the point in that.

So, it amazed me how, as an example, the Das Werk Sd.Kfz. 251 half-track and they provided all the workings of the mechanics from the engine, right the way back down the hull underneath the floor and in a normal vehicle, with the floor fitted, none of that is visible and yet almost every single person I’ve seen build the model has put all of that [in] meticulously, and then they painted it all meticulously, and then put the floor on and covered it all over. And I think “I didn’t bother with any of that”, I started putting bits of it in there I thought “why am I doing this?” It’s just a huge amount of work for something that I’ve no intention of exposing, I’m not lifting the floor out. I want a representative vehicle that’s in operation. The floor will be on, the seat will be in, you know, so I skip those stages and get on with it. And yet they’ll do all tha,t but then they’ll ignore the fact that, I don’t know, know, the wheels are all wrong or something. You know, they’ll just kind of go, “I’m happy with that. That’s what’s in the box”.

Chris

Aren’t the front wheels visibly undersized on that kit?

David

I can’t remember now. There are a few issues with them, but I mean, they’re big rubber ties. So, they’re just not great really. I think the wheel rims are, it’s more the hub and stuff that is pretty appalling in terms of representation.

Chris

But things on a vehicle that size, which are [very] visible, are an issue. And so if you’re gonna ignore something that’s visibly an issue, yet put all the effort into something that’s hidden, it’s a strange, strange thing to do.

David

It’s a strange thing, but it’s an interesting thing where, because the manufacturer has given people that option, you know, it’s all there in the box. You can build all these bits under the floor and everybody just follows it, without stopping to think.

I mean, they’ve done a cracking job with it. It’s all there and it takes quite some building. It’s not just three pieces of plastic to stick under the floor. There’s about, it’s probably a couple of hundred parts to put under there. It’s really complicated.

David

Likewise the engine bay, again it’s all there, it’s all very lovely but if I’m not opening the front hatches, I don’t bother.

Chris

I mean, I’m someone that will always build it just because it’s there and I enjoy sticking bits of plastic together and painting them, whether someone sees it or not. But I do think a lot of the times when it’s built.

There’s kind of a thing of, we’re getting a bit off the subject here, but I’m gonna go there anyway. It’s a of a sort of a performative social media modelling that they do it to take photographs of it to put on the internet.

David

Yeah that’s possibly a thing, yeah would kind of agree.

Chris

Or maybe they just enjoy it, I don’t know. I do think that’s something which kind of afflicts modelling, full stop.

I’m building something at the moment and no one knows what it is and no one will know what it is until, Scale Model Challenge when I put it on the table, just because I think it’s fun to not put stuff on the internet sometimes just to drop it fully finished.

David

Yeah, I did that with the Jeep. I didn’t tell anybody that I was trying to finish it for the KMK show and just sort of turned up with it.

Chris (

None of that “how the sausage is made stuff”, just produce the sausage cooked.

David

Yeah, and it’s quite… It’s an interesting experience, isn’t it, when you’re used to posting stuff as you’re working on it, and then suddenly: not to.

Chris

You find yourself, as you’re doing it, thinking about how you’re going to photograph it. But you’re not going to photograph it.

David

Yeah, but also you get quite a lot of satisfaction from sharing your progression as well. Because if you’re pleased, if you’ve just done something and you’re really pleased with it, there is that sort of urge just to go” look at this, I’ve just got this thing here and it’s all fitted and looks great.”

It’s not because you need somebody else to say “yes it looks great” because you either think it looks great or you don’t. You know and you’re the arbiter of what you’re doing so but it’s nice to have that.

I think it helps the project roll as well, doesn’t it? Sometimes. It’s quite insular when you’re just working on something in secret, shall we say, off media.

Chris

This is gonna sound really weird if there’s any psychologist listening, please tell me what’s going on in my head. But it’s kind of like when I was a smoker, I would do like an hour of work, two hours of work and then reward myself with a cigarette. And now it’s like, I do a couple of hours of modelling and reward myself by posting it on the internet. It’s really strange.

David

Yeah, yeah, there was a little bit of that, I would say. But do find that is it a different thing building in secret?

Chris

I’ve got used to it now. Like smoking again, it’s a habit to post it. becomes even the way you think about how you build and how you do things. When you do it a lot, like for publication and stuff like that, you build in a certain way, which makes it easier to photograph and to describe. If you see what I mean, you kind of construct it with the article in mind as you’re going and that influences how you build.

And to be free of that is fantastic. Cause I used to have a process because it’s easier to explain to people how you paint and weather and things. it’s a process that happens in a certain order, but now I don’t have to explain it. My process is all over the place. I have painted it and done some weathering and done some oils and done some pigments and then think I’m going to go back in there and spray something on there just to change that colour or something.

So, it doesn’t have to be a linear process. You can just use whatever tool you want, whenever you want, which is nice.

David

Yeah,

Chris

But anyway, the thing is with accuracy, and this is another internet thing actually, we’ve never had more information available at our fingertips than we have now. But I kind of feel like when I’m researching something, especially when you come up against it with a subject which isn’t so popular, isn’t so well known, It’s hard to find reliable information because you’re reliant on, quite often, hobbyists who post information who might not have a complete understanding. for instance, if you’re looking at you when you built your Panzer IV, you built a very specific Panzer IV, that was made at a certain factory and was knocked out on a certain day in Normandy and, you know, had a full history that you could sort of research. How do you go about researching so that you’re confident of what it is you’re researching?

David

Well, you have to… There comes a point where you have to rely on a degree of judgement. If you can’t, or guesswork, I suppose. Sometimes, because you just can’t get the information that you need.

The other day I built a 3D model of this periscope sight based on the photographs that I had, and clearly in the picture there was like one of those bands that ran around the top of the scope which had a sort of clamp screwed together sort of thing at the back to sort of clamp it in place and it was some sort of shiny metal and the rest of the scope was whatever colour, was a black and white image so it was hard to be sure. Anyway so I replicated all that, put it all in, I could see these two clasps on the sides, I put them on and then literally the next day somebody sent me some pictures of a preserved one that somebody had dug out of somewhere and was trying to sell. And suddenly I got a whole different aspect on this thing. I could see these clips I’d done weren’t quite fat enough. Also this silver band running around it wasn’t there at all. And I looked at the pictures again and they were like a tech intel report photo. And I thought, “I know, that’s that’s been broken. Somebody’s tried to clamp that together with this with this.It’s not an original part of the scope. It’s a sort of fix to sort of just to test it with.” So then I had to go back and make those changes. But that was, that’s just a little example there of you suddenly get that little nugget of information and it changes, you know, changes.

I find it really difficult, if I can’t exactly see what’s going on, to make a judgment or make a guesstimate of what might be happening. I feel very unhappy about having to do that on those occasions it happens. suppose the good thing is you can use your experience to sort of, know, certain, like the German Army tended to, the German engineers would tend to tackle things in particular ways and you get a feel for what they, how they do things. You’re going to get a feel for how things might be fixed or how they’re clamped on or what sort of clamp it might be or whatever. So that helps because you can kind of bring that knowledge into it and go on. They’re more likely to do this and they were to do something else.

And the rest of it, I mean, as you say, we’ve never been so deluged with information. You can search the internet, but it amazes me you know sometimes it works in your favour, and I get I get pictures I never imagined I’d find that show me all sorts of things. It’s usually off things like eBay where people are selling them, and they photographed it from all around and give me the dimensions you go” it’s fantastic”.

So that can work. And then there’s other times where there’s absolutely nothing. “You go, why is this?” And you do all these, put different searches in and still it throws up nothing, or completely unrelated things. And that’s just, the way it is sometimes, isn’t it?

We’ve never had more access to information. I think anybody who started modelling in the 1980s will appreciate it. They didn’t know you used to have a couple of reference books and that was it. And there was nowhere else to go apart from your local library, which you knew how much reference had been there, nothing really.

Or you’d have a Bellona print or something, with tiny drawings that were the size of the palm of your hand,  just very, very different, wasn’t it?

Chris

I think you do need a certain amount of experience though and judgment, not just of the subject, you sort of develop a bullshit meter for information as well, so that you can tell what’s good and what isn’t.

David

You’ve got to be aware that you might not have the full picture as well and be open to some of the going, well, “have you seen this photo here? Because this clearly shows this, that and the other.”

And then you go, “why didn’t you show me that before I printed 200 of them?”

Chris

At least with parametric CAD though, unlike a hand master, well I suppose you can do it with a hand master, but it’s a lot more of a pain in the ass. You can go back 100 steps and change something.

David

Yeah. Doesn’t always [work] quite as easy as that, but yes, you can. You change one thing back and then the whole thing goes to shit. You have to retrace your way back step by step to see where the problem is.

Chris

yeah, usually there’s like a cascade of other things you have to fix, ior it disappears off the screen. You think “crap!”

David

No, I think it’s to be embraced. But there are things where there’s just, there isn’t any, the reason you can’t find any information about it is because there isn’t any.

I’m working on the Puma at the moment and they give you a sort of fairly simple breach for the inside of the turret, which is fairly visible through the hatches, and it’s rubbish to be fairly blunt about it. But there’s a vague resemblance. Yeah, I’ve seen some pictures of it and that’s far more what it should look like. But I can’t find any photos of the real thing. Which then presents me with a dilemma. Do I kind of just assume it’s fairly like the five-centimeter, long-barreled mount in the Panzer III, but with some changes?

So I’m not doing it or… I don’t know.

Chris

A term that gets thrown around a lot, and I think with little actual sort of consistency in a lot of ways, because it’s just more of an insult than anything else. How do you feel about the term, ‘Rivet Counter’?

David

I absolutely detest it. It makes my blood boil, which is probably what it’s supposed to be, for people like me who are interested in getting things right. But then, you know, I’m trying to promote the term ‘detail deniers’ as a sort of counter to it. Because it’s like a blind refusal to accept that, you know, things might not be quite as detailed as they need to be.

It’s just flung about, as you say, it’s used as an insult, if anybody dares point out anything that might not be completely correct. Then you’re onto the whole, “I’m just having fun with it”. Well, that’s fair enough, but shutting down the discussion is just….

It’s a bit like in a similar way, I see there’s a huge proliferation of these colourized World War II pictures at the moment. One or two of them are really well-done, but the majority are just absolute garbage. And they just seem to be flooding Facebook at the moment. I just wonder how many people are going to basing models on these images because they don’t know.

Chris

I think the issue is a lot of people out there can’t tell the difference.

David

Yeah, that’s probably true. But I think, you know, you may not be bothered that your Puma has got the wrong type of wheels on it because you just don’t care. You just want to the Puma and that fits the bill. But if it’s being pointed out that it’s got the wrong kind of wheels on, for everybody reading the thread, then that’s a bit of knowledge you’ve got there that’s then quite powerful because

You want to do it and you want to get it right. You’ve got that knowledge that the wheels need changing. You may choose to ignore it or you may never use that information, but I think by stamping on it and going, “you’re just being a rivet counter and we’re not listening to what you’re saying” is. It’s like sticking your head in the ground. Isn’t it really? It’s like being willfully ignorant about things.

Chris

It’s kind of an aggressive ignorance

I mean, not necessarily for the person whose model it was, but like you say, for everyone else reading it, you’re denying everyone else that information or the ability to have that information.

David

Yeah, and how does it harm you to take that in?

Chris

I really never have understood why they don’t say: “That’s good. Thanks for letting me know. I’m not too bothered about it personally”. What’s wrong with that?

David

You know, it’s like every time I see a model of the 1968, Tamiya Panther, I kind of cringe a bit because it just, it’s getting back to what we started at beginning. It’s a sketch of a panther. It’s not a photograph. It’s vague. It vaguely resembles a panther, but there’s so many things wrong with it that mean it isn’t a panther.

Just something that vaguely resembles them.

And, again, that’s another thing where people, because it’s a cheap kit, that seems to overrule everything else. “I don’t care. It doesn’t look like a panther because it only cost me whatever it was.”

Chris

Used to see this when I worked at the model shop a few years ago. I can’t remember whose, I think that might’ve been Tamiya’s own Panther came out, was it a D? the most recent one they released? Had that really nice figure of the guy sort of peeking over the turret.

David

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, nice model.

Chris
Yeah. But when that came out, they re -released the 1969 one. A lot of people said, “why are they re -releasing this old kit? Or every time someone else’s more expensive version of something comes out, Tamiya re -popped their old kit.”

But it’s for those guys for whom money is the most important factor, they don’t really care that it doesn’t look like the real thing. It’s roughly the right shape and it’s cheaper. That’s all they care about.

David

It doesn’t even build nicely. It’s a horrible thing to put together. I remember struggling to put it together as a child, as a boy. I remember having this nasty shock because I’d you know, as you do, you’re working your way with your pocket money through various things from Tamiya and I’d built either 222 and the M3 half track and a couple of other things. And then suddenly this Panther and it was just, what the hell’s this? And this doesn’t join here and the tracks want to pull the wheels off under such huge tension. Just awful thing. But yeah, no, I think, think that wilful ignorance about things is just so…

Chris

It’s funny because they say rivet counters ruin the hobby, I think that ignorance is what damages the hobby. I think because it stops other people learning and it assumes that no one wants to develop.

David

Yes, and also it assumes that people who are concerned about accuracy and realism and things are not having fun because of it. That one is mutually exclusive. I’m having just as much fun, thanks, doing all my little bits of fiddly nonsense as you are, slapping something together, silvering the decals.

I think I’m having more fun actually because proportionately, you know, my model takes me seven years to finish. So I’ve had seven years of fun. You’re out three evenings.

Chris

I feel like you’re squeezing every ounce of enjoyment out of it.

David

Yeah, because there’s a huge satisfaction in life. There’s a satisfaction in the research. There’s a satisfaction in the accuracy in getting that knowledge, the knowledge that’s accrued across that process. There’s a satisfaction in having to make bits yourself, to fix problems, to problem solve, and then to bring it all together in a way that kind of is convincing at the end of it.

I find it interesting that we’re in a hobby where the very sort of pinnacle of what people can do with plastic kits is derided as, you know, in some way a bizarre thing to do with it. You know, it’s a bit like…deriding the guy who can run the 100 meters the fastest because you’re quite happy, you know, the people crawling around the track are having fun. It’s a bizarre thing.

Chris

The other thing that goes with it, which winds me up as well, is this idea a lot of people come up with that on Facebook groups, social media groups and what have you, “no criticism unless it’s asked for.” And in fact, I left a group recently because I asked, “so is criticism always a bad thing? Inherently, you know, is criticism a bad thing?” They said, “yes”.

Well, of course it isn’t. You know, these are people who probably are quite happy to shout at Gareth Southgate on the TV or, know, or say they didn’t enjoy a meal or something and asking to see the manager in a restaurant. when it comes to their models somehow, it’s like their baby and you can’t say anything about it.

David

You know, it’s like my one man, it feels like my one man crusade. Elfenbein cream on the inside of German tanks. because everywhere you go, you see them painted white, you know. Just I’ve given up mentioning it now, unless somebody asks specifically about it.

Chris

funny thing is, it’s a more attractive colour

David

But then that misinformation is self -perpetuating, isn’t it? Because people are just copying other people who got it wrong in the first place.

Chris

Well, that goes back to what I was asking earlier about the quality of the information, that modellers tend to repeat what they’ve seen other models say, rather than information they’ve researched and found in a primary source.

David

Yeah, and that’s why I  struggle against it, because I think, I could just scroll by and not say anything, but there’s sometimes when I just think, “no, that needs [addressing].

You see it so many times, and somebody asks a question and somebody gives the correct factually perfect response in the first two responses. And then there’s 50 other people chime in with all sorts of mad guesses or suppositions or just stuff they’ve just made up. you know, it’s just.

Chris

or unfunny jokes.

David

It’s just so frustrating because then who knows? How does anybody know? If you’ve read that thread and you don’t know what the answer is, you’ve got you have the answer right at the beginning, but it’s been swamped with 50 idiots who’ve just made something up because they think they know and then how does anybody else know which is the right answer?

It’s interesting, isn’t it? Because there’s so much, it’s the information age and yet that is sort of almost self -destructing itself because of people’s willingness to just speculate about things that they don’t really know, because they can.

Chris

There’s one common modelling trope that I know is one of your accuracy buttons. So I’m gonna push it right now. Scale colour.

David

Scale colour. Oh dear! I’ve had some proper arguments with people on the internet which I should learn really. yeah, scale colour is utter garbage.

Chris

I put 50p in the meter off you go. I think your Ferrari answer is probably the most succinct way.

David

Well, the Ferrari answer is the one where, you know, because for those who don’t understand the scale colour concept, basic principle is that if something is a smaller scale, all the colours, all the paint on it should be proportionally lighter the smaller it gets, otherwise it gets too dark and then the world is…

Chris

It’s a pseudo science, isn’t there “Atmospheric particles”?

David

Yeah, that’s right. Which, agreed, if you’re looking across a valley, you know, from four miles away, then things do look a bit different on the other side. But that doesn’t really apply to models, you know, because you can’t control the viewing distance for a start.

And then, if you’re lightening your colours, the first trope I argue with is nobody will ever tell you what percentage of lightening per scale is required. So, if it’s that certain, Why can’t you tell me if it’s a 16th scale model how much lighter does it need to be?

And then the other thing is what do I do with my red Ferrari to lighten that colour to make it scale? Because if you add anything, whether it’s yellow or white or anything to try and lighten the tone, you’re not going to have a red Ferrari anymore. You’re have a pink one or an orange one. And I’ve also got some great pictures of a whole row of red Ferraris, about 50 cars, and you can see the colour doesn’t change down this row at all. Within the limits of the photograph because by the end they’re getting really small, because it’s just the bonnets sticking out. And also another one with a photo of whole load of tanks and a train photographed from above and you can see them stretching off for however long down the track and again the colour doesn’t change, they’re all the same colour from front to back.

Chris

I think the other thing is at the distance they’re talking about, let’s say a Tiger tank, if you looked at it and it was so far away, it was light enough to colour it, it would be like two millimeters long, because it would have to be that far away.

David

Yeah, yeah, it’s it’s it is it is nonsense but it’s another one of those things that just perpetuates which is why you see all these sort of powder blue German tanks because people have added 50 % white to their Panzer grey. Whereas in fact it’s almost it’s you know it’s an incredibly dark grey colour to be almost appearing black in certain conditions.

And there’s plenty of really good quality period archive photos that clearly show that it’s not some sort of pale blue colour.

Yeah, it’s one of those things that just needs stamping out, think. Just get people to paint things the right colour and stop mucking around with lightening up things.

Chris

Now, full disclosure, I used to be very much accuracy or death, basically. Give me accuracy or give me death. But now I’m, I hate this phrase, an artistic modeller

David Parker

I’m resisting the urge to swear in this point.

Chris

Yeah, I know. I hate that phrase. where I took for me, it is more about creating a sort of a mood or an atmosphere than it is about being 100 % accurate. However, I do think there’s as many ways to look at modelling as there are modellers, and I got you on because I wanted to a put a totally different point of view to the other ones I’ve had on about modelling and art and so on, because the show is about to be it’s supposed to be about all ideas, not just the ones approved off by the owner.

But also I get what you’re saying because although it’s not something I do myself anymore, I really do appreciate it as an approach. And I really do. I think it’s 100 % consistent and valid and laudable. To be honest, actually, I think it’s kind of the default of modelling. For you the definition of modelling is that to create a small version of a big real thing.

David Parker

Yes, it is. It’s very nature.

Chris
So my version is a perversion of the true nature of that.

David

You could probably get some help with that.

Chris

God, the things I need help with. But for you, do you think modelling is more engineering or art?

David

Mmm.

That’s a good question. I don’t think totally one thing or the other. I think it is engineering. A large part of it is engineering. The large part of it is about precision and accuracy and exactness. But then I think that’s also blended with art because… I can build something, some piece of machinery for inside a tank and if I’m completely useless at painting it, then it really doesn’t matter how well I’ve built it because it’s the next stage that it’s that finishing, it’s the weathering, it’s the difference between a factory fresh example, like a display model, like something from a museum where everything is immaculate. And then the difference between that and something that looks like a real vehicle. Because whatever it is, I’m always amazed that as soon as you’ve washed your car, then it’s immediately dirty because there’s been a shower of rain and it’s now collected all the dust that had settled on it that you hadn’t noticed, and then you’ve got all these water marks all over it and things, and you’ve just spent three hours polishing it and there it is: dirty again.

That’s just one example, and that’s the real art I think, where you can convince the viewer that this is a genuine functioning machine, whether it’s an aeroplane, or it’s a tank, or it’s inside of a tank. And the inside of a tank is my own particular muse, I suppose, because it’s a particular, strange combination of engineering complexity and confined space, with men moving around in it, and living in it, and sweating in it, and spilling things, and maintaining bits of it, and it’s all going on there in that little box and you’ve got to try and conjure that up.

I watched a little film clip the other day of one of the Ukrainian tank units and the driver took the camera and brought it inside his compartment and looked down. He was doing something with the pedals, and you could see all around his feet in this T -62 or whatever it was. I can’t remember now, it was probably a T -72. And there were leaves and I think it was an empty drinks bottle and stuff all just, you know, that just come in with them getting in and out of the vehicle, and just obviously no time to clear all that out. And it’s that, it’s recreating that, it’s making it look believable. That’s the art. The engineering is the creation, the art is bringing it to life, it’s giving it that realism.

Chris

I just think that “living space” is a really important thing because I mean, Ukrainian crews at the moment, they tend to be inside those tanks for hours at a stretch, because if they get out, they’ll be spotted by a drone. And it was the same in World War II that crews would spend a long time in the tank because if they got out, they might attract artillery attention. And I think that’s something that quite often is missing realistically from people’s models is that sense of the, you know, stinky, horrible, sweaty holes that these places were for crews that had to sit in them for hours at a time. And I think you achieved it really well with your Panzer IV turret. I always think of the breach in that, and how you were very logical about where you put the dirt for where it would actually reach, and where it wouldn’t.

David

Yeah, because there’s also within that, yes, they’re living in this thing, it’s filthy and all the rest of it and the floor is dirty and there’s bits of, you know, all of that’s going on. But at the same time, there’s other bits of it in there that nobody gets to touch, ever, because they’re just inaccessible to the crew, you can’t get to, and also, there may be a film of dust sort of settled across bits of it, but then that’s about it. There’s nobody going into that area to do anything particularly.

One thing I did in the turret that I don’t think anybody can see really, but I know it’s there, I did a lot of, sort of greasy finger marks like when you drag it if you have oil or grease on your hand and you just you put it down, and you lift your fingers off, you get like a lot of sort of four or five parallel lines where your fingers have moved and I did a few of those effects around little bits so they’re not very visible, but they’re there, because I just thought that’s the kind of thing that happens and there’s a similar one, on one of the front hatches, there’s a bit of a palm print in there. It’s more visible there and people do comment on that, because it sort of catches the eye. People notice it as a little thing.

But yeah, I think that’s what lifts these things to that other layer because you could argue now that with this technology, all the skills that we developed for scratch building are kind of irrelevant now because as you and I have discovered, once you’ve got to grips with that software, sky’s the limit. There’s very little you can’t do now, in terms of what you want to do and what you want to design, and how straightforward that is. That’s if you wanted a model or something that isn’t released, you and I could probably just draw it up ourselves. How we produce it is a different matter.

Chris

I think having been a scratch builder though, it’s kind of like knowing how to swim before you ever get in the water, because you’re comfortable in the environment already.

David

Yeah, no, I agree. I’ve always said, the reason I was able to pick it up and I think you’ve been proof of that as well. The jump from traditional to computer generated design is far, far easier if you’ve got that background in being able to read a photograph, being able to judge proportion, being able to interpret and you know, judge by relative sizes, and all that sort of stuff, and break things down into their component parts. That skill has stood you and I both in good stead in terms of that jump into the digital world.

But what I’m saying is, there’s less to be sort of triumphant about in that now. You know, I do get huge satisfaction out of it, but I made it with my own hands as I once did. So it means that you and I can both do that, and so can anybody else who takes the time to learn and has that skill set, they can do that as well.

But what isn’t translatable is that bringing it to life, applying paint, making it look like the real thing. Does that look like polished steel, or does it look like you just brushed some metallic paint on it?

So recently there was a, somebody, well it must be 10 or 12 years ago now, probably, if not a bit longer, did a 16th scale Tiger I based on series of well -known photos of this vehicle which is covered in mud, bits of it were dry mud and other bits were wet mud and it had quite an unusual brush painted camouflage pattern. And somebody else had built this before and it popped up on Facebook, and at first glance, I thought “it’s my model” because it was the same thing, I think it was a different scale, but then when I looked closer, I could see that the mud and the mud effects on it were nowhere near what was shown in the photograph, and it just made me think well why? That vehicle was a gift because you’ve got two or three photos of it from different angles, as a modeller, you can clearly see the wet mud, the dry mud, the pattern, the interface between the two, because the radiator box at the back is drying out the corner of the hole and the rest of it’s still wet. So why wouldn’t you refer to that when you’re making that model? So just slopping, slapping mud all down the side of it, you know…

That just is another example I think of just where realism pays dividends. If you replicate that exactly as it is in the photographs, you’ve got a winner straight away. And the reason it’s a winner is because that’s what it really looks like, instead of something that doesn’t look like what it looks like. And that’s why it automatically convinces you, because it’s based on the real thing. And if you haven’t got that reference, then you go and find something, you find something else. You go, okay, I haven’t got an exact picture of that, but you know, I’ve seen vehicles where, there’s been a fuel spill on the deck and then it’s got coated in mud or dust and that’s changed the effect of that.

But there’s things you can then extrapolate and apply and give or recreate. I think that’s the secret for me, is always: don’t think you know what it looks like. Find out what it looks like. Or find something as close as you can to what you think it will look like and use that. Don’t guess, because a lot of that is what separates, you know

Chris

It’s funny actually because I’m stuck on something at the moment and the reason I’m stuck on it is because I want to another few layers of visual interest to the thing I’m working on. But I need to go and research photos of the real one, and close up photos, so I can see the sort of the patina on the armour before I carry on. Because I know if I make it up, it will end up looking bad. It won’t look good. It’s easier in a way to research the real thing and to try and replicate it, than it is to make it up

Chris

Do you think it’s possible to make good models that don’t strive to be accurate, where accuracy or realism is not the goal.

David

Yes, there are, because there are people who do incredibly evocative work. They tell a story in a way that it’s impossible not to react to. I’m thinking about Per Oav Lund’s whaling diorama from last year, which was just, is it accurate? I’ve no idea because I don’t know what whaling, you know, sloops, looked like at that time. Does it convince me that that was a whale tipping the boat over? Yes, absolutely. was an incredible model. Dynamic and just technically superb. Creating the water, recreating the skin of the whale, the look of the boat.

And just setting a scene, really just in with absolute command of everything, you know. As he always does, you know, the guy’s an absolute genius with that sort of thing. And a lesson for anybody, I think, who wants to, see the example of what model making can be.

And you know, I sometimes think, “what are you doing making dirty tanks, you idiot?” You know, “you could be doing”, and maybe one day I will, maybe I’ll go and do something that’s nothing to do with dirty military equipment. It’ll be something else entirely. And occasionally a picture comes, I see a picture of something, and I save it. But yeah, I think there are plenty of examples of that where the creativity is such that accuracy, isn’t the be-all-and-end-all.

Chris

think if it’s a single military vehicle though, even I, as I said earlier, that I’m kind of into the artistic side. If it’s a single military vehicle, it’s kind of like a prototypical image of something. then I think there isn’t really a lot of room there for artistry. It is more about accuracy.

David

So, here’s going back to the Jeep for one of them, just because it’s a convenient reference point. I know I would have made a great looking model there if I’d put a dark pin wash over every detail on it. It would have just popped and it would have looked great, But it’s operating in a desert environment so there aren’t going to be dark outlines around everything, there’s actually going to be light outlines around everything. and try as I might, every time I’ve done some vehicle in that situation, you never get the same zing out of a pin wash that isn’t dark. If you’re doing dust effects, you’re just not going to get that kind of punch that you get out of putting a dark pin wash around everything. And you know there’s times when I think maybe I should, but I can’t now.

You see how many desert Panzer I’s you see with a dark pin wash and everything. They’re everywhere, and they do look good because of that, but what’s causing that dark wash around everything?

Chris

It’s kind of one of my pet peeves actually, because I mean, I used to put a dark wash around everything, and I still have to fight the urge to do it now because it’s so ingrained to do it as a modelling thing you do.

David Parker

Yeah, and it immediately fixes your model. It looks great. It suddenly looks 50 % better. Immediately you go from something that looks flat and two -dimensional, suddenly it’s looking brilliant. I remember following Francois Verlinden’s techniques back in the 70s when he was bringing all this stuff out and the first time I tried it, I couldn’t believe how my model looked when I put a wash around it and then dry brush highlights and then it just absolutely was jumping off the bench. But is it real? No, it’s not. So, then you have to find a way of making it real within those restrictions, which is a different thing isn’t it?

Chris

Well, there’s your creativity, that’s where that comes in.

David Parker

So yeah, but I think if you’re looking at a single vehicle, you know, and you’ll still see it now. You go along the competition table and a lot of them will just have a dark wash on that’s making them jump out. Does that make it a better model? Does that make it a more realistic model? I would argue it probably doesn’t. I think there needs to be some variation in it.

Chris

I think though, do think we tend to follow each other a bit? I think even with the good shows, there’s certain things that when we’re judging, we get used to looking for and certain things that become kind of standard.

David

Yeah, there’s an accepted parlance of, you know, like little chips around bits and this and that, , rusty tracks and a little bit of streak here. Yeah, there’s definitely an accepted vocabulary of what makes a good model, in people’s eyes.

Chris

The danger of that is all models end up looking the same because everyone’s trying to use the same language.

David

Well, they do, that’s why. Again, you know, I’m flicking through social media today and something came up, somebody had done like a colour modulated vehicle and he just applied the paint basically, but it was all heavily colour modulated. I thought, “ooh, God”. But I thought I haven’t seen one those for a while. Because you don’t. It’s not a thing anymore. Never was a thing for me, but it was a thing.

Chris

For a while you couldn’t move for them.

David

Yeah, that used to sit with me and my focus on realism. I couldn’t get over painting different parts of the tank different shades of a particular colour because that’s not right. And then trying to blend them all into so they didn’t look like they were different colours.

Chris

The thing that got to me with it was the way they used to do really high contrast edges, like light edges, and then transition it through to the darker colour on the other side. But kind of like I’ve heard you say with non -metallic metal before, when they’re reflecting things that aren’t there, so the light reflections don’t work, you look at them thinking, how is the light hitting this in order to make all those panels look like that? There must be like 10 different lights. But because it was a very high contrast sort of attention-grabbing style, think it was very popular for a while.

David

It was, yeah, it was. I’m glad to see it on the way out. But, yeah, each to their own, I suppose. from a realism perspective, I just don’t think it was doing anybody any favours.

Chris

And like all styles, I think inevitably it ends up becoming a parody of itself. People go further and further and further with it until it’s way overdone. Like they did with Verlinden and dry-brushing.

David

Yes, exactly. Which is where realism brings you back. That’s what you’ve got that break on it. For me, I always think, you know, it stops you pushing and pushing and pushing for the sake of it to be different or dynamic or, you know, whatever it might be, because is it real? If it’s not, it needs reigning in doesn’t it? Did the thing actually look like that? Or as best as we can judge did it look like that?

Chris

Do you think accuracy and realism are dying out a bit in the age of the better detailed kits and so on?

David)

I think so, yeah, I think it’s a lot easier not to have to worry about things because you’re getting a better basic thing out of the box most of the time anyway. Or you can get away with a few little corrections or a few little improvements will make a big difference. But I think there’s certain people who will push themselves to sort of look beyond that and want things to be as good as they can be really in terms of what they’re doing and how correct it is

So, you know, it’s not my place to sort of tell people how they enjoy their hobby, but at the same time I think, that comes back to the whole “Rivet Counter” thing as well. There’s a very broad spectrum of approach, isn’t there? And the thing is, I think people who dare to point out a slight inaccuracy or a suggestion, they’re not doing it to sort of stop anybody else’s fun. They’re doing it to try and be helpful, or to try and impart some advice, some helpful advice or knowledge. It’s not just about undermining what’s been done. But I think we’re reaching the point sometimes where people just aren’t saying anything at all.

Chris

It’s safer not to, isn’t it.

David

Just to shut up, yeah.

Chris

Which is a shame.

David

I think so, yeah. But then you get to know the people who are open to sharing the right knowledge.

Chris

The only concern there is people new to it that want to learn. It’s harder for them to find the people now who can help them.

David

Yeah, I guess. Yeah, although, before the internet,  none of us had any of that anyway.

Chris

Although before the internet, we also didn’t have 100 people telling us it was great, regardless of whether it was or not.

David

Yeah, no, I wonder what that would have done to me as a young man.

Would I have just been happy with what I was doing then and just stuck with it because people were saying it’s great or not? Probably not.

Chris

Probably not, because you’d see other people’s and know, because you you have a realistic ability to assess yourself against the work of others.

David

Yeah. This is what I always say to people about rivet counting, the best modellers in the world, no matter who you pick, by and large, as a rule, the best modellers are rivet counters. Because it’s that attention to fiddly little details or finishes or whatever it is.

That’s what makes them the best, because they’re putting that detail, they’re putting that attention into it. They’re not just going, “that’s good enough”. They’re going, “that’s not good enough. That elbow joint’s not in the right place. I need to change that. It’s not convincing me,” or “that eye needs repainting because it’s wonky from the one next to it” or whatever it is. The best modellers are Rivet Counters

Chris

Rivet Counters are people who don’t accept mediocrity in their own work.

David

Yeah, don’t let themselves off.

Chris

All right, so who are your favourite rivet counters?

David

I’ve got to caveat this with the fact that I will remember several other people who I would like to include on this, my list, 20 minutes after the interview finishes.

Chris

It’s always the way. I’m the same.

David

people that I look up to and whose work I really admire. So I’m going to call out, he’s probably not as well known as some people, I’m calling out Liejon Schoot, who was building his King Tiger at about the same time as mine. And he was always a little bit ahead of me, which was a little bit frustrating, but it was also quite helpful because he kind of solved a few problems before I got to them. But he doesn’t make a big song and dance about what he does. Some people might have seen he’s been doing a similar thing with the SdKfz.251 in 16th scale, lot of scratch building, a lot of extra detailing, some of my parts and just he’s, he doesn’t, his painting and finishing style is quite subdued. There’s not a lot of fancy things going on there. It’s quite sort toned down in that respect but just the guy, he’s never satisfied with anything as it comes. If it’s not right, then he’ll fix it. And his finished things are just phenomenal he’s just an absolute craftsman, he’s brilliant.

Who else says, well, I’m thinking Roger Hurkmans because Roger’s the diorama builder I wish I was. You could take the vehicle out of his diorama and it’s a standalone class winner there. But then he puts it in the diorama. It’s always beautifully crafted. The buildings are just as good as the vehicle, if not better. And then they’re populated by all these figures and they’re not just stock figures. He’s modified them all, or he sculpted them. So, they’re all individual poses. They’re all telling a story. They’re all exquisitely painted. And not only that, really irritating me, seems to turn them around in a matter of sort of weeks and months. Something that would take me years to finish he’s rattled off in like a couple of weeks. There’s all this is the thing I’m doing and then there it is all finished and painted, so absolute genius.

I’m gonna call out Megas (Tsonos) as well. Megas with his Scratchbuilt aircraft, because my word! I’ve had the real privilege of going to his house, sitting there talking about his model and he showed me some of the stuff he’s done and how he’s done it. I mean to build a sterling bomber from absolutely nothing. Just incredible, and he’s another one who just the level of finesse, the finishing, the weathering, there’s no corners are cut, it all has to be right. Every little angle is checked and measured, and you know it’s just… He is, for me, the best aircraft modeller in the world, because he’s scratching, and then he finishes it to that exceptional standard. He paints models like nobody else model airplanes, that look you know? He’s not afraid to have them covered in oil or exhaust fumes or whatever. Because he’s an aircraft engineer, he knows what he’s doing with all that as well. I still remember the big balloon tires on one of those four engine bombers with big puddles of dripped oil on top of the tire. Because he’d observed that and that’s what he replicated. So yeah, he’s an absolute star as well.

Chris

Well, someone I think you would probably say, I’m putting words in your mouth now. We both know him. You know him better than me, think. Fanch Lubin.

David

Yes, absolutely, yeah. He’s another one. People like him and Megas are on another level with aeroplanes. Because I think with aircraft, and I don’t rate my aircraft models anywhere near like I do with my armour, but I think once you get to a certain level of skill and ability, then there should be this step up into a different sort of stratosphere of what you’re doing, and these guys are doing that, they’re going that extra level with these things, and yeah as I said as soon as we finish, I’m going to think of a whole list of people I’ve been embarrassed I haven’t remembered now. So I apologize to everybody.

Fabio Sachi and what he does with his, I mean, there’s another, he’s another guy. He can scratch build anything he wants.

Chris

He’s one of those people as well who isn’t nearly as well-known as they should

David

No, he’s an absolute genius. He is the nicest guy you could hope to meet. And not only can he scratch build and he goes and he puts everything right, fixes all the things he needs to fix. And then he pulls off this master stroke paint finish at the end of it. But again, it’s not all shouty. It’s not all effects. It’s not modulated this and high contrast that.

It’s just, this is what these things look like. And you look at it and go, that is what I can see. This is exactly what these things would have looked like. And it’s like you’ve turned that black and white image into a colour image. You’ve thought about it. It’s, you know, it’s all balanced bits. And that’s the difference. That’s where these guys are really, you know, because it’s about realism and that’s why it’s so convincing. And it’s not about fancy effects or trendy styles, but it is about replicating reality in miniature. Definitely.

Chris

It’s ironic that it’s one of the hardest things to do, yet one of the least showy ways you can do a model.

David

Yeah, a lot of these models just get overlooked because they’re all dark pin washes and chippy this, that and the other.

But, you know, we’ve featured his work in the magazine so many times. The list could go on and on. There’s so many, so many people doing really, really excellent work and a lot of them flying completely under the radar, because they’re not making a song and dance about what they’re doing or giving it a name. You know,  they’re just getting on, and doing what they do, but doing it really well.

Chris

Plus if you’re listening and think it’s you, yes you.

David

Yeah absolutely. And if I bumped into you in the next show it’s definitely you. No but once you start you know there’s so many guys you know?

Chris
All right, I ask this to everyone and it’s the most horrible question in all of modelling, potentially. Why do you think we actually make these little things?

David

that is a very good question. I can only speak for myself in all ways.

something neat, fascination with miniatures, whether it was sort of toy cars or model train sets or whatever it was when I was a boy. And it always has fascinated me and always will, I think. I think

The question is why though, isn’t it?

There’re things that I can identify about it that are particular to me that make it what it is. So it’s something I can do on my own. I don’t have to socially integrate with anybody else to do it. It’s something that has a lot of sort of… mindfulness about it, i .e. when you’re doing that you can’t be worrying about other things. So that’s very helpful. It’s not dependent on the weather, so I can do it whenever I want to. It’s not a seasonal thing, it doesn’t depend on other people. It’s something I have absolute control over, and it’s become something I’m very good at. So, we bring all those things together, I think.

I’ve got some Asperger’s syndrome going on, so it sits very nicely with that kind of personality and gives me a great deal.

 When I was a boy and I was making models, I was particularly pleased with how something was coming on, I was halfway through. So, my equivalent of posting on social media back then, my parents would kind of go, “you going to stop now because you’ve been in there making your models all day, come down and watch the telly.” I’d bring the thing I was working on and put it on the mantelpiece, or on the table next to me, so I could keep looking at it whilst watching the TV

whatever it was. I’d be turning it around to see it. That’s how obsessed I was with that creative thing and I still am today, I get absolutely focused on it, on a thing now, and just a look of it sometimes you know?

David

I’ve got a half built 251 sitting on the desk next to me here and I keep glancing across at it. It just looks so cool. It’s a complete mess. It’s a track off it and all sorts because I’m using it to sculpt figures. So it’s nowhere near finished. It’s just a real build mural for posing figures in. But just, there’s something about it,

 Chris (

It’s going to sound weird now, but I kind of feel like I fall in love with every project. If I don’t, it never gets finished.

David

Yes, I really agree with that. there’s an absolute, you know, there has to be some of that otherwise it doesn’t get done.

Chris

But once you do, you’re constantly kind of looking at it, thinking about it. And the funny thing is once it’s over, onto the next one.

David

Yeah, because that becomes the new focus. But how I managed to do that for seven and half years, I’m not quite sure. I did.

Chris

Well, David, this has been fantastic, and it’s gone on much longer than I said it would, so apologies for that. But thank you very much for joining us.

David

That was fun. Thanks, Chris for having me, it’s been an absolute pleasure

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